amherst v. williams

College Search & Selection
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<p>Not being able to visit either, it's hard for me to differentiate between the two. I can't really conclusively decide which one I like better, even with research. (I have read over like 5+ threads with the same subject, but I'm still hoping for more info.)</p>

<p>I love to write, but I would most likely major in history, although an awesome English department is a plus. I'm totally not into the partying scene. I've been turned off by a really preppy vibe at a few colleges I've visited before.</p>

<p>I'm leaning more towards Amherst, just because:
-it's less isolated, with the 5 college system and a college town. (I'm a city girl at heart, but since there's relatively few libarts colleges near urban areas, I've decided to put that mostly out of consideration.)
-there's supposedly LESS of a heavy drinking/ jock environment than Williams
-open curriculum, which seems to indicate that they allow a lot more experimentation/ discovering new interests.</p>

<p>Things about Williams that are cool:
-tutorials: I think that's my favorite part about Williams
-supposedly more of an artsy vibe than Amherst? (I like artsy vibes).
-even though it's more rural, I suspect there'd be a more close-knit community just because there's no where to go?
-4-1-4 schedule seems pretty neat</p>

<p>Other things that are important to me, but which the two seem to be about equal: stellar financial aid, really great humanities program, good study abroad (although Williams has that rad Oxford exchange program), both beautiful campuses</p>

<p>Splitting hairs: Williams has about 300 more students, making it slightly bigger. Both have extremely low acceptance rates. Amherst has 40% students of color, Williams 36% (diversity is important to me). But overall, there doesn't seem to be so much of a difference that I could make a decision off something like that.</p>

<p>It's just hard though, to determine that I like Amherst better just because it has MORE of a college town and slightly more diversity and slightly less of a partying scene.</p>

<p>Other (little) things I'd like to know:
is either college more into organic food/ vegetarian options?
Which has more campus events?
Which has more trees on campus?
Any areas where one college is substantially better than the other.</p>

<p>Basically, are there any major things that differentiate between the two colleges that would help me figure out which I prefer? (I'd especially like to hear from those of you who have visited both, and can compare campus atmosphere--what's the difference between the average Williams and Amherst student? What are students most concerned with? What impressions did you get when you where there? Why did you prefer one over the other? etc.)</p>

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<p>well I have visited both. at williams i got a serious tufts syndrome vibe, where there is a lot of enmity towards harvard because they got rejected. however there is a joke i heard. what do amherst students and williams students have in common? they both got accepted at amherst. i am actually in the same boat. i like writing, am probably majoring in history, and am leaning towards amherst. competition much? haha</p>

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<p>also my tour guide at williams reminded me of chocolate rain. but more smug.</p>

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<p>Why do you have to choose at this point? Apply to both, and if you get in to both, attend the admitted students’ weekend to decide for yourself.
I think there’s a lot of overlap between the two schools and if you would be happy at one, you’d be happy at the other.</p>

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<p>@candid: Is there any particular reason why you liked amherst better than williams?</p>

<p>@silicon: I’m really trying to narrow it down to one of them–I only want one super reach on my list. Plus, I’m not enough in love with them that I’d take up two apps applying–I’m a little bit more interested in a few other colleges. But I’d still like to apply to amherst or williams.</p>

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<p>I felt that Amherst was a nicer town than Williamstown. Williamstown seemed a bit more run-down and depressed than Amherst.</p>

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<p>well i had lunch at amherst and as a vegetarian i was favorable impressed. also my friend and i sat on a grassy knoll and watched ultimate for about an hour which was really nice. but at the same time the weather was really nice that day, so it could have affected my decision. i saw guys at amherst playing a game of wiffle ball which was pretty cool. i just got a much more positive vibe at amherst. however williams is more prestigious</p>

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<p>also what are your stats? that could help decide.</p>

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<p>haha… so true</p>

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<p>I don’t think that’s necessarily true. I think they’re about equal.</p>

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<p>^Agree, they are basically equal. </p>

<p>I got the chocolate rain vibe from our Williams tour guide as well. Haha.</p>

<p>Surprisingly, even without a core curriculum, Amherst felt more “strict” education-wise. Williams felt more like Tufts whereas Amherst felt more like Princeton.</p>

<p>Each style is great and depends on the student and what they are looking for.</p>

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<p>My son considered both, but after visiting chose Williams for ED. He had a wonderful four years there.</p>

<p>In my opinion, the student bodies at Amherst and Williams are culturally indistinguishable. In the past few years Amherst’s administration has moved to the left with a greater progressive agenda, but at the end of the day the student profiles are very, very similar: smart, multifaceted, active, mostly middle class kids. The involvement in sports and socializing is also very, very similar.</p>

<p>The physical environments are, however, quite different. Amherst is a lively small New England town with thousands of college students near by, the majority of whom attend UMass. Williamstown is a mountain village surrounded by profound natural beauty. It definitely feels more remote and insular than Amherst. For those who like nature and the outdoors this is a big positive. For those that are more inclined to city pursuits it’s a negative. A visit usually determines which camp you fall into.</p>

<p>My son was fairly unmoved by the consortium concept. The ivory tower, self contained aspect of the Williams community was, for him, a plus. </p>

<p>Academically the two are also very, very similar. Excellent history and English department, with a major writing focus. Committed students, accessible professors, small classes, impressive graduate school placement. Amherst has an open curriculum, but Williams’ distribution requirements are flexible and experimentation is encouraged. Williams has the tutorial program which is especially effective in English and history.</p>

<p>Williams has a January term – winter study, which my son considered a highlight, but it does cut into your holiday break.</p>

<p>Decidedly, Williams has a much greater focus on the arts than Amherst. I wouldn’t characterize the students as artsy, but there is an overwhelming support of the arts and many students particpate in something arts related.</p>

<p>The music, drama, studio art and art history programs are some of the strongest among the rigorous liberal arts colleges. Three world class museums on or near campus. For my son, this was the deal maker.</p>

<p>On your other little things, I can only speak to Williams.
Williams kids are very health conscious. There are several (five I think) dining options on campus – which is unusual at an LAC – and all serve vegetarian and vegan choices.
There are tons of campus activities, arts, sports, social, political, visiting speakers, performances etc etc.
Plenty of trees!</p>

<p>I would agree, apply to both and see how your acceptances come in.</p>

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<p>The consortium that Amherst is part of has two implications that might matter to you. You have many more choices in course selection - with two other schools right in Amherst: UMass and “hippie” college Hampshire. Second implication: the bigger student population because of the schools concentrated in one area supports more resources - stuff like a Whole Foods nearby and more activities than Williamstown.</p>

<p>On the geography: Williamstown is in the Berkshires, which is an upscale skiing and summertime vacation area. Lenox, the summer home for the Boston Pops, is nearby. The downtown is small.</p>

<p>And the two schools are known for their sports rivalry- when we visited Amherst a couple of years ago, it was right before the game between the two. The tour guide talked about how mostly sports at Amherst is not extremely competitive, and anyone can try out for the team, and that the Williams-Amherst football game was the only “major” game at the school. He said that ESPN was broadcasting the game.</p>

<p>And a stupid thing I remembered, that there is a sledding hill at Amherst, and the students take their trays from the dining hall (only one) and sled down the hill onto the field (I think it was a soccer field)</p>

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<p>Thank you for all the thoughtful replies :)</p>

<p>I thought about it more and I’m completely in love with the tutorial concept of Williams and their supplement this year (amherst’s is rather stuffy and blah in comparison, imo). But Amherst has the whole townie 5 college thing which appeals to me very much. </p>

<p>So, after racking up all this fuss, I’m seriously considering applying to both. </p>

<p>Thanks everyone for the input, it gave me a much rounder picture of what the two colleges are like. Keep it coming–it’s been very helpful :)</p>

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<p>Blarggghh, your analysis is thoughtful and generally accurate I’d say. A few links of interest on organic food and Hopkins Forest at Williams (since you expressed an interest in those topics, well, you mentioned trees at least!):</p>

<p>[Garden</a> launched with Great Ideas funds : The Williams Record](<a href=“The Williams Record – The Student-Run Newspaper of Williams College Since 1887”>The Williams Record – The Student-Run Newspaper of Williams College Since 1887)
[Williams</a> College :: News & Events - Press Releases](<a href=“Williams College”>Williams College)
[Sustainability</a> Food](<a href=“http://sustainability.williams.edu/category/food]Sustainability”>http://sustainability.williams.edu/category/food)
[Hopkins</a> Forest](<a href=“http://www.williams.edu/ces/hopkins.htm]Hopkins”>http://www.williams.edu/ces/hopkins.htm)</p>

<p>Now, a few responses to some misconceptions on this thread, plus some of my own thoughts. </p>

<p>First, Williams definitely does NOT have Tufts syndrome. I believe that Williams is the first choice for something like 90 percent of the students who ultimately attend. 40 percent of the students enter via E.D., for starters. If folks really want Harvard but don’t get in, they are far more likely to end up at a place like Penn, Tufts, Cornell or Brown than Williams, which is basically the top choice (along with Amherst or Swarthmore) for folks more focused on a liberal arts school, to begin with. </p>

<p>Second, it is simply incorrect that Amherst varsity sports are not competitive and that football is the only “major” game, and that it is easy to simply walk on to a varsity sport at Amherst. Far more Amherst students (and Williams students) are into the Williams-Amherst basketball game than the football game, for starters. Varsity athletics at Amherst, in most sports, are basically evenly matched with Williams, indeed Amherst has the top team in the country in several sports right now (including women’s basketball, women’s ice hockey, and men’s tennis) and at both, if you aren’t a recruited athlete, you almost surely won’t be playing a varsity team sport like basketball or soccer (these are REALLY elite athletes, many of whom could play D-1), and if you walk on, it will be in a sport like cross country, crew, or track and field, and even then you won’t be someone who scores for the team at major events. I’d say Williams has a slightly sportier / more outdoorsy vibe in the aggregate on campus, more students into hiking, intramurals, etc., but in terms of varsity team sports, the schools place an equal emphasis on those, and they are equal in terms of success. </p>

<p>Third, Amherst and Williams are totally equal in terms of prestige and academic opportunities in the aggregate. Each have some departments that are better than the other, so that is something to consider. For example, Williams is clearly better in math, physics, and art history, and also is generally better in the sciences, in part because it has far, far better natural science facilities and a higher percentage of the student body majoring in science. I’ll leave it to an Amherst person to list its relative strengths, academically. But you prob. can’t go wrong with history or english at either school. </p>

<p>The geographic location is a substantial difference which has already been discussed. The plus at Amherst is that there is a lot more to do in town plus the consortium opportunities, the plus at Williams is the nicer setting in terms of natural beauty plus the fact that the town isn’t dominated / overwhelmed by kids from other schools, and is a charming, insular community, which I enjoyed. Williamstown, while a very small town does have a surprising amount going on for its size, including an indie movie theater, several great art museums nearby (which sometimes have music and film events), a ski slope, a few golf courses, a few bars, and a fair number of restaurants. But obviously there is far more going on in and around Amherst, so social life at Williams is more centered on the campus. </p>

<p>You should look at idiosyncracies at each, and see which you prefer. For example Williams has a Winter Study term where everyone is on campus, while at Amherst, most of the campus is on an extended winter break. This to me is a substantial difference, actually. You might prefer one model over the other (most people at Williams LOVE Winter Study, but again, they chose Williams for a reason). Williams has tutorials, Amherst does not. Williams has Trivia at the end of each semester, Mountain Day, The Walk (after homecoming football), and the J.A. / entry system, all of which contribute to the general feel of the place. I imagine Amherst has its own unique, fun quirks, which I’m less familiar with. The point is to get as much info on these little slices of life at each, which contribute to the (marginally) different character that might lead one type of person to choose one over the other. </p>

<p>But I agree that applying to both makes sense – very few people are lucky enough to get into both, in all events.</p>

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<p>Do you have a source for this? And would it be reliable? Students who ultimately attend a certain school are very likely going to say that it was their “first choice” AFTER THE FACT.</p>

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<p>Applying ED does not necessarily mean it’s someone’s “first choice.” Many people apply ED for the admissions boost; they feel that the benefit of the ED admissions advantage outweighs the risk of rejection at a more selective institution. The fact that Williams relies on ED as a crutch precludes it from being a “first choice” school. Despite ED, the majority (56%) of Williams admittees enroll elsewhere.</p>

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<p>Are you saying that the 56% of Williams admittees who choose to enroll elsewhere overwhelmingly choose other LACs? Again, do you have a source for this? My guess is that not only is your position wrong, but also that you have no support for it. If, as you suggest, Williams is “basically the top choice for folks more focused on a liberal arts school,” then wouldn’t that mean that many, if not most students who turn down Williams are NOT turning it down for other LACs? If Williams is THE top LAC, then wouldn’t Williams admittees who turn it down be LESS LIKELY to turn it down for other LACs?</p>

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<p>Until very recently, Harvard and Princeton relied on early admission programs. MIT continues to do so, and Yale and Stanford have enjoyed success with their own programs, which serve the same purpose as binding programs.</p>

<p>In consideration of Williams’ preeminence among its cohort, it is unreasonable to suggest that a substantial proportion of enrolled students would have preferred to enroll elsewhere. Not to suggest that this proportion does not exist, and that it does not exist at a higher level than it does at Harvard, say.</p>

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<p>The 90 percent figure is used by Williams. (Actually, it’s 95 percent):</p>

<p>[Admissions</a> – Williams College| Facts and Figures](<a href=“http://admission.williams.edu/bigpicture/factsfigures]Admissions”>http://admission.williams.edu/bigpicture/factsfigures)</p>

<p>Now I grant that this is almost surely self-reported by students (there is no other way to survey whether Williams is a first choice school, or at least I can’t think of one) and of course after the fact there may be some cognitive factors that would lead someone to be less than honest in evaluating their own preferences. But even if the true number is more like, say, 75 or 80 percent, you can hardly accuse Williams of being a place that folks are settling for in a “best school they can get accepted to” kind of way, as positive above. That is the claim I am refuting here.</p>

<p>KWU, by definition, if someone is applying E.D. to a school, it is their first choice school. I mean, I really don’t think there is any way to more clearly express a preference than by doing so. I don’t think I knew of a single person who applied E.D. to Williams who was thinking “I really want to go somewhere else, but I’m going to forego even the chance to get in elsewhere because of the small [and it is small, E.D. credentials are just as good if not better at Williams and schools like it as for other admits] boost to get into my second choice school”! If that is assumed, then it is absolutely meaningless to even have a discussion of “first choice.” But everyone I knew who applied E.D. to Williams was SUPER enthusiastic about the school.</p>

<p>You are also conflating different things. Of course, NONE of the people who are accepted, but DON’T choose Williams, would have considered it their first choice school. No one is claiming (nor could they) that Williams would ever win the relative yield battle vs. HPY. I’d say nearly EVERY student at Harvard, for example, is at their first choice school, since virtually all would be accepted at nearly every college they apply to. Maybe a few would have listed Yale and Princeton, but not many. That is totally irrelevant. I am sure many, many people do apply to Williams as but one of many top schools across the board, without a particularly strong interest in Williams. For many of those people, they will be accepted at many good schools, and choose not to attend Williams. </p>

<p>The claim that was made above (which has NO support whatsoever, I might add) is that Williams is basically a place for people to settle for when they get rejected from Harvard. And that is not at ALL the profile of students who actually ENROLL at Williams, the vast majority of whom are very, very excited to attend Williams and don’t view it as a back-up plan at all. My point is that, for those whose heart is set on Harvard, more typically their back-up plan is a school like Penn or Cornell or Brown rather than Williams of Amherst. Many of the students who turn down Williams will do so for any Ivy, and these are precisely the sort of kids who might be accused of having a Harvard syndrome or something. </p>

<p>The kids who choose Williams almost always have many great options to pick from, and are making a cognizant choice to pick Williams because of what it has to offer, not because it is the next best approximation in terms of prestige or general style to HYP. Based on the figures provided by Williams (and my own anecdotal experience), that just isn’t the typical profile of students enrolling at Williams. Not to say there aren’t some like that – there surely are. But the fact that so few people in the general population have heard of Williams actually works in its favor here. If you are applying in the first place, there is a good chance you have some particularized interest in the school, vs. just being part of an application dump. Very self-selecting applicant pool.</p>

<p>If anyone has any contrary evidence, or actual support for a claim that Williams has “Harvard syndrome,” I’d love to hear it. Again, the issue is not, do the majority of students ADMITTED to Williams think it is their first choice school – they don’t. The issue is whether the students who actually ATTEND (who, unlike admitted non-enrollees, actually affect the campus culture) feel like they are settling for Williams instead of a choice they prefer, and almost always, the answer there is no.</p>

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<p>Sorry, I should have addressed my comments to Workman, rather than KWU. Also, Williams does not use E.D. as a “crutch.” E.D. admits are just as qualified, if not more so, than R.D. admits. It is perfectly appropriate for Williams to want some way to gauge whether applicants are truly excited to attend – something particularly important for a school so small in size, where fit really matters. There are probably 1000 applicants Williams rejects each year who are, in terms of credentials, virtually identical to the cohort it admits. It makes sense that Williams provides a way to signal a truly intense interest in the school on the part of those who are particularly excited to attend, lest they get rejected in the E.D. round in place of someone virtually identical, but who lacks the same connection to / passion for Williams.</p>

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<p>NON-binding EA =/= BINDING ED</p>

<p>~57-75% yield > ~44% yield</p>