I’d hesitate to generalize about STEM class size, even at small schools. For ex., as best I recall, Grinnell and Denison both cap all classes, regardless of subject matter, in mid-20 student range (25 or 28 at Grinnell, 24 or 28 at Denison). Other LACs we visited had larger Intro science classes with more typical lecture format.
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The generalization is based on required STEM courses. Neither Grinnell nor Denison has such required STEM courses, AFAIK. If there’s no such requirement, then the college can cap the class enrollment and students who can’t take the class due to the cap would either have to wait for their turns or take alternative classes. At colleges with such requirements, students don’t have a choice and the colleges generally can’t offer multiple identical classes simutaneously to satisfy the demand.
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@1NJParent This makes sense. I’ve been surprised to learn that the size of intro lectures at small(er) colleges like CWRU and WPI is often 100-200.
@homerdog I wonder if it’s the nature of the beast?! My son hasn’t turned his camera on once in math (zoom school) this year but still has a 97. As long as the work is getting done, it doesn’t matter if he speaks. Of course this is different from in-person school, where there has been group work in math, although still no req discussion.
Sorry to be dense, but if assorted Intro classes are required for Bio, CS etc. majors, then they are required for students in those fields. My point is that some smaller schools do have small Intro STEM classes. Obviously, neither Grinnell nor Denison offers engineering. I’m not familiar with class size at LACs that do offer engineering, such as Union or Rose Hulman.
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I’m not sure what you mean. Of course kids can do well in a math class without verbally participating whether it’s on zoom or in person but, at most LACs, the whole point is to get personal with your professors. If your son doesn’t want to participate then I’m guessing he’d rather a big anonymous class.
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Requirement by major is distinct from general requirements that all students have to satisfy. If a STEM course is only required by a major, then the correspond department is likely to be able to offer a smaller class. However, for STEM courses that are required for granting the degree, they’re generally not capped.
@homerdog Well, he’s too anxious to get up close and personal with professors, but I’m not sure a large lecture hall is the right fit either. In my mind, a good fit would be a place where his work is recognized and supported, he scaffolds interpersonal skills over time, and he builds confidence and becomes less anxious.
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Yes, but I’m not aware of any school that requires a specific class to fulfill a gen ed. A school – large or small – may have 2 classes in natural/physical science requirement, but that can be fulfilled by any number of different Intro or other classes in various departments. While Grinnell doesn’t have distribution requirements or gen eds, Denison does – 2 classes in a range of disciplines, including 2 science classes from two different departments, plus a quantitative reasoning requirement. None of those classes fulfilling those requirements are larger than 28 students. I’m sure there are other schools that are similar.
Is your child a junior in HS? Are they going to be able to get good LoRs?
what are his plans for after college? He will have to be able to get along with others no matter what he does in the future.
@Mwfan1921 Yes he has an AP teacher who is currently writing him a nice LOR for a summer program. It’s really hard for an introverted kid in zoom school to form amazing relationships with teachers.
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@homerdog He’s just starting to explore careers. All signs point to engineering, but he’s really interested in CompSci. He can relate to others, just has social anxiety. So I’m trying to find a college with a happy balance where he won’t be overwhelmed but will still build necessary skills.
MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd have specified courses (or a very limited range of options) to fulfill their math and science general education requirements, and Harvey Mudd has a specified course for one of its humanities and social science required courses. Many colleges have an English composition general education requirement where the choice of courses varies only in the topics in the reading list and what students write about.
OP- it goes without saying that you can be building many of these skills right now before he goes to college.
Is he making all of his own appointments- eye doctor, dentist? (no fair if he uses an online calendar system!) Even if you’re only grocery shopping on a limited basis right now- he can be asking the person at the deli counter for “extra thin” slicing, finding out when the pumpernickel was delivered, calling customer service to ask about a glitch in your cable service, calling the DMV to schedule his own driving test.
Successful interactions are muscle memory for many teenagers. Once he’s talked to a stranger to reschedule his dentist appointment, it’s a lot easier talking to a Dean at college about two courses he needs to take which conflict with each other!
I can’t imagine avoiding a college which is otherwise a great fit for his interests, your pricetag, location, etc. just because one or two classes may be small and MAY require participation! It’s just a lot easier to help get to where he needs to be once he leaves for college. He does NOT need to become the life of the party or Mr. Extrovert- he just needs to learn how to confidently navigate the grown up world- which fortunately or unfortunately, is going to require more personal interaction than he’s used to right now. Strange roommates, asking the person behind the counter if the sauce has cilantro (which he hates), getting housing to replace a balky lock on his door, asking a professor for an extension… if he can handle all of these on his own, class participation will be a cakewalk!
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Colleges that have predominantly humanities and social sciences majors don’t have specific STEM requirements. However, even for these colleges, CS classes have become so popular that they tend to be large. Other colleges with large number of STEM students will have other basic math and/or science course requirements.
With computer science, many interactions are, by definition, virtual. Of course, human interations are always desirable in any field, but he can certainly develop that interpersonal aspect of his skills gradually, and perhaps more importantly, among people who are more used to his type.
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@blossom Oh my goodness, exactly this! Any interest in helping us with life coaching!? He was making such good progress in the life skills department until covid hit. He was taking public transportation to school, going to Panera with his friends, even babysitting if you can believe it! He wasn’t making doctors appointments or cancelling cable, but making solid progress for a 9th/10th grader. You’re right about prioritizing life skills as a first step.
I think the BIG question that I’m still grappling with is whether a school like Purdue would overwhelm him and thrust him further into regression or whether a smaller school like WPI or an even smaller LAC would be the best fit.
How do you think he’d feel about co-oping? A couple of smaller schools that are STEM centric and smaller are Rose Hulman in Terre Haute Indiana and Kettering University in Flint Michigan. Kettering use to be the General Motors Institute. They require a co-op and I believe have around 1800 students with half being on co-op at any one time. Rose Hulman is a bit larger around 2700 students and the number 1 ranked university for Engineering where a Doctoral degree is not offered. They don’t require a co-op but have their own research department. They are worth checking out.
I don’t know your son- but I have seen kids like him navigate large schools with ease. The smaller schools sometimes offer less-- fewer of “his people”, fewer course sections if he doesn’t click with his TA, fewer choices of a lab partner when a project requires teaming up, etc. And of course- not as many choices when it comes to living situations. Maybe one option for an ultimate frisbee team (or chess, or anime, or “build your own instrument and come and jam” , or whatever he loves to do) vs. a larger school where there is stuff like this happening all the time with various social groups participating. A small college may have one team, advised by a professor, to build an electric car, or a boat which only uses recycled material, or cooking stoves powered by solar suitable for the developing world, or whatever cool and innovative idea someone has. A large college may have 15 of these “for fun”, in addition to a plethora of hands on lab classes which are focused on innovative solutions to environmental or social problems.
A small school may be fine- or may require a lot more face-to-face interaction than he’s used to. As I said- I would NOT be using school size to screen right now. I have many members of my family who sound similar to your son- and they have navigated some huge universities (math, engineering, life sciences, humanities) as well as some of the smaller options. I bet if you find the right academic offerings the rest will fall into place.
I’m flattered by your coaching offer! Sounds like you are on top of things. Even asking the local pizza store to deliver the mushrooms on the side is a good way to build phone confidence! No ordering via an app though- gotta be a real human being!!!
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