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Now, I will state that D presented her rural life as a significant influence in how she viewed the world, and I believe that came through in her entire application file. From EC's, to jobs, to summer activities. We knew that a country address wasn't going to separate her from the herd, but a country life would.
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<p>Cur:</p>
<p>I loved your daughter's chances everywhere she applied precisely because it was so obvious that you and she "got it" in terms of figuring out what would make her application unique and interesting.</p>
<p>BTW, my daughter also intentionally positioned herself as a "small town, public high school kid". All it takes is a phrase here or there in the essays. Or, starting an essay with a train ride into the city. Or, whatever. What the heck? Exeter and Andover kids are going to ride their horse as hard as they can in application process. No reason that somebody on a different color horse shouldn't ride it, too. Whatever horse you've got in the application process, ride it hard and put the whip to it.</p>
<p>The key is identifying that identity as a "bullet point" in the first place. Then, it's a fairly simple matter to think about "staying on message" while writing the application.</p>
<p>andi,
I've been told that the dominant behavior has changed from overtly checking each other out to silently doing so. So no, people aren't revealing much, either, in my d's class, but unfortunately no one feels less competitive, or less competed with, for that level of secrecy/mystery. It's just turned into a game of, "Hmmm; wonder where <em>she's</em> applying; maybe I'm just as good so I'll apply there too; or maybe I'm better so I'll try to beat her." (Whether or not the prize is valuable for "me"!)</p>
<p>I live in a very very small city in a very rural state. And I think that does help the very top students get into selective schools (and by that, I don’t mean just HYP). </p>
<p>(Aside: on one application, my daughter had to check off rural, suburban or urban. Our environment fits none of those. For my state, it’s urban, but everyone else in the country would consider where I live rural.)</p>
<p>I have to agree with Andi on the general cluelessness of the average parent about the application process. Before I became CC dependent, I knew more than the average person about college admissions, yet I had never heard of enrollment management. In watching my daughter’s classmates approach this process, I’d say they all haven’t a clue. They are still in the mindset of – good students go to good colleges; apply and they will accept you. A top student just got deferred from a selective LAC, and students were stunned. Kids tack on safeties at the last minute, if at all. No one ever mentions the concept of demonstrating interest. And students are never discouraged from applying to the most highly selective schools. When it comes to the college application process – it’s like a deer in the headlights. There are a lot of parents who leave this whole thing up to their kids, and others who lack the time or inclination to spend hours doing research. What we all know here really isn’t common knowledge.</p>
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I've been told that the dominant behavior has changed from overtly checking each other out to silently doing so.
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<p>I believe you're right on that epiphany.</p>
<p>I guess my whole point here is that if the above quoted adcom's message were made very clear to GCs and their students right up front- a lot of disappointment and bitterness could be avoided. Applicants could come up with college selection strategies like interestedad's and would have more success and feel more in control of the process. As it is now I think unsuccessful applicants feel stunned at not getting in and look for somewhere to place the blame- which then falls upon the admissions process and diversification.</p>
<p>sly_vt, and andi, I agree with you. Most people do not understand the process. I have, however, found that the gcs in our hs do suggest schools that have very high acceptance rates and where the student would be in the top 75% of the applicant pool. They do not suggest highly selective schools to their B+ students. Our gcs I feel do not discuss topics such as showing interest, financial considerations, geographic diversity (other than stating that you might want to think about going too far from home, b/c you might not be able to come home for Thanksgiving). I have theories as to why some of these topics are not covered. For example, financial issues are awkward especially if the parent has not asked the gc about them and can be perceived as offensive and too personal, encouraging visits could lead to a student taking school days off (lost revenue to the district).</p>
<p>I wonder if it is very difficult for kids who get straight A's and high test scores to understand that college admission, especially to the likes of HYPS and similar schools is not something that is awarded to the person with the highest "points" on some objective measure?</p>
<p>On many of the "why was I deferred/rejected" posts here, as well as seeing what's gone on at my own D's high school, it seems to me that most people don't "get it" at all. Asians seem particularly prone to this sort of logic. However, I live in a very white, very high income area and most of the white kids/parents also think this way. I think that's because very few of the parents around here actually went to top colleges, though they really want their kids to go to one.</p>
<p>Each kid needs to have (what I call) a "story." If your "story" is that you are really smart then you'd better prepare for a huge amount of competition and admission being a lottery game. </p>
<p>If your story is something like: I'm smart ENOUGH. And in my spare time I do art, even though I'm really good in math and want to major in it. Or I'm smart enough and even though I take all the hardest classes and do well (enough) I also go sailing everyweekend and have started a program for low income kids to get introduced to the joys of boating." or I'm smart enough but I spend most of my free time doing a variety of sports; then you have a much better chance at HYPS or similar school admission.</p>
<p>My kids HS does a dismal job with this. They go "ga-ga" over kids they think are "smart" and the counselors seem to think this is enough. They really have a very provincial vew. Subsequently, our schools admit rates to top schools is pretty bad. We are in California, and UC does seem to operate on a purely test/grade basis and the people here don't understand that the top privates are not like this at all.</p>
<p>IMHO the application to these schools is a marketing opporutunity, not a report card. I reviewed my D's initial apps and re-arranged things and completely deleted other things she had put down. Those activities didn't contribute to the "story" and were a distraction. </p>
<p>Now, I'm not saying this approach is a guarentee either, but it is much better than the purely grade/test score/technically correct essay approach to top college apps, IMO.</p>
<p>pencilpusher- You are correct. There are many qualified students with excellent stories to tell. The highly selective schools WILL take a kid with a 2400/4.0, but there are others who will NOT be chosen. The schools will also take a kid with an interesting story to tell- even if it is not a "pretty" story. I have seen many kids with flawed behavioral records and imperfect transcripts (including my son) get accepted to highly selective schools.
This is why I rush to correct students and parents who think a B IN AP Euro or an alcohol violaton is going to ruin their chances for admission to their dream school. It the way the kid comes across- academically, socially and talent-wise-fits in with something the school wants to see- you might be in.</p>
<p>Pencilpusher, "Asians seem particularly prone to this sort of logic. However, I live in a very white, very high income area and most of the white kids/parents also think this way." I never knew that Asains are prone to certain kind of logics before your post. Do you think it is genetics? You said most of the whites in your area also think that way. Now that we have both whites and asians in your circle thinking that way, perhaps you can elaborate on how African Americans think.</p>
<p>padad,
I agree with pencil pusher in that Asians do seem particularly prone to thinking that if they have high grades and scores, they will be guaranteed entrance into places like HPYS. This is not because of the way Asians' brains are wired. It's because many come from cultures that historically have determined entrance to higher education based solely on test scores.</p>
<p>White immigrants also may think similarly for the same reasons.</p>
<p>padad- If you read the threads posted by Asian kids about their parents and their own assessment of chances, you will understand pencilpusher's statement. Also, if you read the book The OverAchievers, you will further understand. I overheard one end of a conversation between an Asian classmate of my son's and his parent (from Hong Kong) two summers ago. The boy was SO frustrated because he could not get his parents to understand that no matter how much more he studied to raise his SAT scores, it would not guarantee his admission to Columbia! They saw it as a simple matter of numbers. African-Americans have other things to worry about- like whether they can grow to be 7 feet tall. (this was a joke)</p>
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Pencilpusher, "Asians seem particularly prone to this sort of logic. However, I live in a very white, very high income area and most of the white kids/parents also think this way." I never knew that Asains are prone to certain kind of logics before your post. Do you think it is genetics? You said most of the whites in your area also think that way. Now that we have both whites and asians in your circle thinking that way, perhaps you can elaborate on how African Americans think.
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<p>It is has nothing to do with genetics! It is the lethal combination of misinformation --or refusal to pay attention to the correct and more timely information-- and an erroneous sense of entitlement that contributes to the faulty logic. </p>
<p>However, it is easy to understand the reluctance of people to abandon the mousetrap that ... served them so well for a couple of generations. It is hard for expert gamers and extremely competent manipulators to understand that the admission process is a fluid one and that admissions officers DO learn from past experience. The days of the "paint-by-the-numbers" candidates are well over; the next to go will be the "pageant" candidates fabricated by masters of deception like IvySuccess' Robert Shaw --or whatever his given name used to be.</p>
<p>Northstar and MomofWC, Most Asian American college applicants in this country are third/fourth generation immigrants, whose parents have little inklings of cultures back in Asia. Statements such as those from pencilpusher and sources you cited only perpetuate a misconception. Yes, there are such Asian parents/students as depicted. We notice them becuase like those who are 7 ft tall, they stand out to be noticed. The vast majority of Asian Americans attend colleges outside of HYP not because they fail to gain admission, but like other kids in this country, they fall into a wide range of spectrum of choices and readiness etc. </p>
<p>I once retold a story in CC that a good friend of mine who was born in the Japanese-American internment camp in Ohio during the WWII conflict. He was once asked by a visiting professor whether he has trouble adapting to American style of teaching. I know it is hard to see an oriental person and not think that they are different. But this "less American" perception is something that we Asian-Americans are being reminded of all the time. </p>
<p>In response to the comments on the Asian kids in CC. Yes, there are those, but what you don't hear are those kids who have supportive parents. It is unfortunate that the whiners get to be heard, irrespective of their representation in the group.</p>
<p>To Xiggi, The genetic question wasn't meant to be serious. Please note that the poster's comment on Asians was immediately followed by "most whites" in the same community. If the whites and the Asians are similarly misinformed why single out the Asians as "particularly prone"?</p>
<p>The asian thing comes from the culture more than anything else. When my parents were in high school in China, the ONLY basis of your admission into college were numbers. You would get one chance to take a test that scored how well you learned everything that happened during high school, and they would take a chunk of the top scores and admit them to college. The rest would have to go and enter the workforce, usually doing unskilled labor for the rest of their lives. School for many asian families is a FAMILY issue that includes the parents along with the student. This is why you'll get parents that are almost, if not more zealous about grades and getting into college than their kids. A lot of the asian parents see themselves as fully involved in their child's education, and a failure to get into a super prestigious school is a failure of the family as a whole. </p>
<p>Because of this, the culture has seeped into how Asians view education in the United States. I remember that in Middle School, my parents were VERY upset with me because of a GPA that wasn't considered good. It was all about the numbers and we had foolishly thought that the academic admissions process was the same in the U.S. as it was in China all those years ago (it's still like this now). Luckily, more asians where I live are starting to "get" the reasons why people are admitted into the prestigious universities. </p>
<p>But while lots of people are admitted into the HYPs of our time because they demonstrate a passion, asian students that are pressured by their parents are still feeling the influence. Asian parents know that if you have great ECs, you will stand a good chance of getting into a good university. However, it comes down to the students to actually go above and beyond school and not all of us want to do what is necessary. This is why I see TONS of asians at debate tournaments, but not many actually excell and put forth passion. I heard a conversation going on between my parents and another asian parent, listing off all the ECs that are necessary to make a good college app. How many asians do I know that take some sort of musical instrument? Plenty. How many are going to dedicated their life to music because they truly enjoy it? Not a whole lot. The ECs now are seen as steps to get INTO college, and most don't accurately reflect what that student wants to do. Of course, not all of this is bad. Having parents put pressure on you to take part in activities is a good thing. I took piano for 7 years and I DESPISED it. I was able to quit Junior year but now once all the college stuff is done, I'm starting it up again because it's interesting and there's no longer the pressure for me to play these great classical pieces. I can just have fun playing piano. Hopefully this is how it all turns out, that the students I know do gain the passion for their activities once the pressure is off. But, there will always be the glamour of getting into college. After I was accepted into Columbia, my dad send an email to almost EVERY asian family that I know. They see that getting into a college is an opportunity to brag. My mom bugs me everyday about an asian girl at my school and asking about which college she got into. I had to tell my dad to take off a part about me being accepted to columbia in a christmas card to a potential employer. It's just not relevant. Okay, that was a little rant. Back to the meat and potatoes.</p>
<p>It doesn't look like the plethora of ECs that are empty and have no substance is going to stop either. There's a lot of communication in the asian community where I live about college. It seems that every time my parents go to a party, the discussion always turns to how to get kids into the "good" colleges. If a student is successful, everyone will find out and will try and understand what special EC got that student into college. One example would be myself. I attend a private school, an expense that all the asian parents I know wouldn't be willing to take. I remember one asian mother saying that private school would be a waste. Now, there will be lots of talk about sending kids to private schools here and I have already begun to hear some of it. I remember my dad saying that if I don't get into a good university, he will be embarassed because he will have made all these financial sacrifices all for nothing. Great, but not a good way to encourage students.</p>
<p>padad: I said they "seem" to be. Note the word "seem." It's based on my observations. If your observations are different ,then, well, your observations are different. What the overall reality is, I doubt anyone really knows. </p>
<p>And I have to tell you padad, the asian individuals I know are actually first or second generation so perhaps the people I know are rather different from the people that you know. Regarding whites, again, I'm only going with what I see around me. I am aware that my community is not typical. One reason why I know it's not typical is that I didn't grow up around here. The culture that I live in now is totally different than the one I grew up with even though my community of origin was also mostly white. And both are different that the types of people/cultures I encountered when I was in college (at an Ivy League school, though a "lower level" one.</p>
<p>This is just my impression. I haven't done a survey. If your impression is different so be it. I'm interested in your impressions and why you have them. I guess you have no interest in mine.</p>
<p>Let me tell you what I observed in medical school, which was an Ivy League medical school. It was a very eye opening experience for me. Many students were from HYPCP and other top east coast lac's. These people and their "culture" was different from anything I had ever experienced. Particularly the HYP people.</p>
<p>They were all smart, of course. But no one talked about being smart, no one talked about studying. No one talked about getting good grades. No one even talked all that much about medicine. It was "assumed" that you were smart and got good grades. It was considered kind of a faux pas to discuss such things. Instead they talked about sports, about politics, about the latest art exhibit, the cheap student tickets to a good broadway show. How to cook a gormet meal on a student budget. Where the best bagels were sold. One fellow student collected unique children's toys and would show them off to us. (He ended up in pediatrics.) One student ran a photography business on the side. One kid was an olymic athlete and seemed to be always coming back from a work out.</p>
<p>We had grinds in medical school, but they were looked down upon.</p>
<p>We had asian students in med school and they were just as funky as anyone else.</p>
<p>I reached the conclusion that these are types of kids that HYPS really want.</p>
<p>I see the parents in my little area (asian, white, pink or green) and who haven't been there and seen what I've seen. They DISCOURAGE their kids from following a quirky passion. Instead they want them to "do research" or play an instrument the kid isn't all that jazzed about. They'd rather have them study a bit more than do something that's a bit unusual and fun. Based on what I've seen, that is a mistake.</p>
<p>But it's just my observation and if you want to disregard it, feel free.</p>
<p>"
They were all smart, of course. But no one talked about being smart, no one talked about studying. No one talked about getting good grades. No one even talked all that much about medicine. It was "assumed" that you were smart and got good grades. It was considered kind of a faux pas to discuss such things. Instead they talked about sports, about politics, about the latest art exhibit, the cheap student tickets to a good broadway show. "</p>
<p>Yes, you are right. HPYS aren't looking for people whose lives revolve around getting straight As and getting 2400 board scores and letting others know how smart they are. HPYS are interested in people who certainly are smart, but who are passionately interested in other things beside showing off their intelligence or devoting themselves to their grades. Similarly, at reunions, people don't spend their time talking about their jobs, money, etc., but tend to talk about things like their community service, kids or other interests. Most people also are very interested in things like community service. They never did it to get into college, but because they genuinely care about things like that.</p>
<p>He has posted a response to a series of replying posts. Provides clarification & some retorts. Affirming for those of us who believe in inclusion, but I know that it will not be satisfactory for anyone who interprets diversity as "discrimination" (vs. inclusion). The people most difficult to convince will continue to be of 2 categories:</p>
<p>(a) those who in their heart of hearts do not believe that the number of qualified students from many ethnicities exceeds the number of available freshman seats
(b) those who define "achievement" as winning a seat only at HYPSM, with "failure" being the opposite.</p>