<p>"The teacher begins to teach the curriculum and soon realizes that many of the kids are learning very quickly or seem to already know the material."</p>
<p>Have you thought of the possibility that some kids are intuitive and have better reasoning abiltites ?</p>
<p>"but to me it seems drastic that if we don't play the game that a group of highly competitive people have imposed on us, my child won't have a shot at a good college at age 18."</p>
<p>Everything in life has a choice and a price. You don't have the play the game if you are willing to make the choice and pay the price. Whinning and wishing to have a cake and eat it too, won't cut.</p>
<p>I'm not trying to attack anyone or be mean or anything... just a note. I actually do get what you parents are saying and I'm wondering if you asked your kids whether they feel the same way.</p>
<p>I live in a competitive suburb of a big city, and the situation is like what you guys describe. The thing is, instead of talking about how unfair it is etc. the attitude here is basically deal with it. I'm not saying that's what you should do (blossom, GFG) but seriously, the student body of a certain age group just changes. Right now everyone is uber competitive, and it's not like you can change it with a post or two on here right?</p>
<p>I know it's frustrating when it's something you don't want to do but it seems like you can't do anything EXCEPT that. But you can't justify your complaints by blaming other people for causing the situation. </p>
<p>I'm not a genius or anything, nor do I care a lot about "playing the game," but when I saw how competitive my classmates were getting regarding grades (like your math example in junior high) I went and studied over the summer to place well. I'm not bitter about it, I just saw it as something that I needed to do. Who cares if other people imposed this situation on you? The thing is that if you want those "results", then it's something that needs to be done. It's not a problem of money because I didn't have the cash to spare either so I just chilled by myself in the library a few hours a day.</p>
<p>But I guess what I'm trying to say is just deal with it. It's the situation right now, and if you want to "play the game," then do it. If you DON'T and think it's wrong, well, you can do that too. But you'll get certain results because of that, and complaining about it is just useless because it's not like you didn't have a choice.</p>
<p>Simba:</p>
<p>Some kids are indeed intuitive and learn more quickly than others. Some, however, learn more quickly only because they have been exposed to the materials before. At the beginning of a class, the discrepancy in preparation is quite obvious. This discrepancy might disappear in a couple of months; unfortunately, it is in the first couple of months that decisions are made as to staying in the class or dropping out. By the time the teacher realizes that he or she needs to slow down, some students who could have accommodated to the new pace have dropped out.</p>
<p>We know of many students who took AP-Calc in high school and re-take it in college. The same thing seems to apply in k-12.</p>
<p>tabuLaRasa: that's the spirit. You will do fine in life.</p>
<p>GFG, I can sympthasize a bit given the description of your community and school and like Blossom says, if you could move, you may want to consider it. The reason is that the situation you describe does NOT exist everywhere. Yet, you feel you have to play the game for your child to have some chance at college admissions success. But I am telling you that not all kids who end up at selective colleges went through the "game" that is in place in your community. If you continue to live where you do, you are enmeshed in that "game" and have to make some choices whether to join it or not. I realize the pressures you describe. It is just VERY foreign from what exists where I live. I fully believe you as I have heard it described by others who live in communities like yours and I see it in some posts on CC by some students who possess very competitive attitudes. When my D looked at CC when I first found it, she could not identify with the posts by most students comparing stats, wanting prestige, yadda yadda. It is so unlike how her life was, even though she was a top student and happended to end up at a highly selective college. </p>
<p>For instance, the situation you describe with seventh grade Algebra and kids who have taken it before the school year begins and so on, is the opposite situation from here. Here it is more like what Marite describes even though her community and mine are SO different in terms of size and populations. Here the MOST advanced math track starts Algebra in 8th grade. Both my children were very advanced in math. They had already done MS level math in upper grades of elem school (our elem school goes up to grade 6 and individualizes levels of learning and so my kids accelerated in math there). Both my kids needed to take Algebra as 7th graders which is unheard of here, unfortunately, even though LOTS of schools like yours have it in the curriculum for advanced seventh graders. We had to go in and advocate for accomodations to be made (frankly, this wasn't just in math but I'll stick with math for now). Even their sending elem school principal and teacher advocated that my kids needed Algebra in seventh. We also told the MS that our kids were not so unusual and others would come after them who had this same need (indeed that has happened and many parents of younger kids have thanked me for advocating for our kids and making inroads that have benefitted learners like their kids who came afterwards). </p>
<p>My kids each did independent study Algebra I in seventh grade under the supervision of their seventh grade math teacher who gave them the assignments and then the quizzes, tests, and finals for the HS Algebra course (for which they also got HS credit). My kids happen to do well in independent study and have done several of these in math and other areas. They sat in the classroom and did their own level assignments. They had to do this again in 8th grade for Geometry because no 8th graders could take Geometry! Funny, but our MS is attached to the HS and this could be easy to do if this weren't considered so over the top that a MS might be ready for Geometry! Other schools, like yours, teach Geom. all the time to 8th graders who are accelerated. In my older D's case, she worked alone in grades 7 and 8 for math. Two years later, younger D came along and so we had already broken ground on this (though still many MS teachers were VERY unhappy about this arrangement or letting a MS accelerate like this.....funny cause you would not even consider this unusual acceleration in your school!), and in her case, there were 4 students who needed this level of math and so she worked in a group of 4 in a group indep. study and got HS credit. Both girls completed AP Calculus in 11th grade. That is as high as our Math curriculum goes here. My older D took second year Calculus indep. study through long distance courses with Johns Hopkins in 12th grade because she wanted to and is an excellent math student. Younger D graduated early after 11th grade. Both had very successful admissions outcomes at very selective schools and ended up at one of their first choices. They are side by side in college now with kids who went to schools like your child attends. Just a different experience and path that got there. Definitely far less competitive and far less prestige oriented and far less pressure. What you have in your community is not the same everywhere else though I have read of many situations similar to yours. You have to decide if you want to be a part of that kind of environment or not. If you stay, then you have to decide if you will play the game or not. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Although I advocated moving, it was tongue-in-cheek. There are other considerations besides schools.:)</p>
<p>But I think there should be efforts to accommodate all kinds of students. Between the superstars and the struggling kids there is a wide range of interests, abilities. Middle school is the worst in this sense because there is still only one or perhaps two levels at most for this wide range of students. So some students have taken summer classes and can go to the next level. Others have not and thus not competitive against the better prepared kids and yet are ahead of other students in their class. Ideally, either enrichment could be provided in regular classes or support could be provided in the accelerated classes until the students catch up.</p>
<p>One more thing I appreciate about our k-8 school: there were no grades. The teachers had "grading criteria" such as going beyond, proficient, etc... For the going beyond score, it was adjusted to what the teacher though an individual student was capable of, not how other students were doing. When S was not working up to his potential, the teachers did not hesitate to let him know.</p>
<p>simba, please don't imply that I'm rascist. I also mentioned the Jones, not just the Patels, because this problem is universal where I live and knows no ethnic borders. I would say that the Jones' tend to be upping the ante more so in the arena of sports and EC's (of which I gave an example), while the Patels are doing that more so in academics. But there is quite a bit of crossover too (take my family, for example--I'm white and my husband is Hispanic) and people of all backgrounds have joined in the trend. </p>
<p>And yes, we have to deal with what is, and are doing the best we can. But I don't have to like it. Why pick on me for posting? Yes, maybe it's a waste of time. None of us, including you, are changing the world by talking on CC. I notice you've posted about 1000 more posts than I have, though. It's just fun and entertaining and there are lessons we can learn from each other.</p>
<p>The relevance of my posts to the thread is that in communities like mine--and probably like those in NY where many Intel finalists come from--I believe that the study of math and science by the majority of American kids is suffering. Math and science has become a competitive sport because of the many contests, the early tracking of kids in set academic paths, and because parents are spending tons of money on tutoring and extra classes to push their kids ahead. It is quite common to see kids here complete calculus by freshman year. They are no smarter or more hardworking than many of their peers, just lucky their parents have the bucks to help them win the race. IN other words, the elite will be fine as always. But what about the rest? They are getting discouraged and shut out. </p>
<p>By the way, we are dealing with this as best we can in addition to venting. As I write, my daughter is trying to teach herself some Algebra II ahead of time. But this path simply doesn't work for every kid. I was a good student but I doubt I could have taught myself math. As a consequence, we are leaving many, many kids behind in this rush to see a few kids doing ever more advanced work.</p>
<p>OK, I've said it all too many times. I'm done now.</p>
<p>Well, not quite done yet, lol.</p>
<p>Thought I should clarify how I see the discouragement playing out. Years ago, a smart kid might have thought to himself, "I have all A's in my science classes. I like science a lot and I guess I'm pretty good at it too. Maybe I'll major in biology or chemistry in college."</p>
<p>Now, a kid of the exact same ability level would be saying, "I really like science. I've done pretty well, but I haven't gotten all A's in my science classes (since now they're not just ordinary AP classes but second year college level AP classes). They didn't pick me to be on the Chemistry Olympics team, and I haven't done research like those other kids in my AP biology class. Maybe I'll major in business."</p>
<p>Case in point: S#1 Ivy-bound kid with high SAT scores and a very self-confident personality. Took all the science AP classes available at his HS, enjoyed them immensely, and scored 5's on every AP test he took. However, he doesn't think he's particularly good at science. Why is that?</p>
<p>The only friends of his who are deciding to major in science are those who have participated in those high level competitions and programs (like the Columbia science classes for high schoolers). That's great for them and for our country since they'll do well. But now that participation in such high level programs has become the gold standard for what makes a student considered "good" in science, many bright kids who could have become perfectly competent scientists are turning to other disciplines.</p>
<p>GFG, I totally understand what you are saying about your school and community environment. For instance, there are folks there trying to "get ahead" and there are kids in Calculus in ninth grade or some such and so other very bright kids seem sorta "nil" in comparison. That's the problem. Your typical bright kid in your school might not stand out or feels left behind or not good enough or whatever, but that same kid would be just fine some place else and likely do just fine in the college admissions process. They are a small fish in your school's pond but may be a bigger fish elsewhere. Bottom line, they still likely have what it takes even if they don't stand out in YOUR community. I wasn't trying to say that you literally have to move but you have chosen to live in a very competitive community where this is going on and so I can see the pressure or the dilemma that it causes. It is sorta like you either have to get on that fast boat and ride the waves with them or just do your own thing. In some other places, like here, you can do your own thing. If you have strong desire to accelerate and have learning needs or interests, then you go after them here, but it is never to keep up with the others but it is more intrinsic. Here, my kids have gone above and beyond the norm not to stand out but simply because their learning needs and crave for challenge that was appropriate to their level required accommodations and inner drive to pursue these things. But it was never a competition with anyone else. They just had their own standards. We may not live in a school community that many of you would have chosen for your kids but the more I learn of other learning environments, the happier I am that my kids had this one. </p>
<p>Marite, by the way, our elem school had many similarities to yours, though ours only went up to grade 6. It is a fantastic elementary school. Our middle school is the big weak link in our educational chain here. We also do not have any gifted policies or programs in our state. Our elem school was into meeting individualized learning needs and differentiating the curriculum. It was the MS that wanted to put everyone on the same level and the levels and goals of the students were very wide. Luckily the HS has Honors classes and so forth which was better. We had to have a lot of accomodations for our girls in MS due to their desire to be challenged appropriately.</p>
<p>GFG, I didn't see your last post when I posted above. But that is exactly what I mean. The way kids feel in your community who haven't done these extraordinary or presitgious things, think they do not have what it takes, etc. They are measuring themselves only against the "competition" in your community. But those same kids might feel very differently about themselves if they went to school some place else. Those same type of kids do pursue things like science and do end up at highly regarded colleges. </p>
<p>Kids like mine from the middle of nowhere who did not have the experiences you are describing in your town, are now side by side with those kids at their colleges. And they are not inferior at all. I must say that they did not experience this outside pressure at all on their path to getting there. They had high standards for themselves but none of it was comparative in nature to those around them growing up. Kids didn't compete here. Kids rarely spoke about their college lists and so forth. </p>
<p>It's funny but I had never even heard of the Intel competition until I read about it on CC. I recall in my D's senior year of HS (she is a very good math/science student, tops in her HS), her GC must have come across a notice about the Intel competition and handed her the mailing. I had to laugh because he likely had no idea the level of this competition and that by that point in senior year, nobody would just be starting to look into it and all. It was way past that point for anyone who would enter that competition. Kids here do not enter these things. Another prestigious national competition I read about on CC first, is the NFAA Arts Awards. So, my younger D entered and won one. She would never have heard of it through school. When I saw the list of winners in ALL categories for the NFAA awards (there are many categories in music, dance, visual arts, theater, writing), my D was the ONLY winner in ANY category from our state. There are lots of winners from certain particular states. I am sure those kids' schools tell them about the competition and even help with it. Not at all the case here! Just interesting observation.</p>
<p>"Your typical bright kid in your school might not stand out or feels left behind or not good enough or whatever, but that same kid would be just fine some place else and likely do just fine in the college admissions process."</p>
<p>I think my problem is that I'm not feeling particularly confident that this is the case, or at least it's not so if we're talking about the top tier schools which only take one or two from a high school. This year, because it was such a crazy admissions year, we did see several friends of my son's who were top students, who took tons of AP and honors classes, and were left with lots of waiting list spots and only the state school as a definite admit. It was really an eye-opening experience. You see, the surrounding communities also have very strong high schools, so the competition in this geographic area is intense.</p>
<p>We are, in fact, trying to move to a kindler and gentler place. Any suggestions? Lots of folks from here are heading south to North Carolina.</p>
<p>TheGFG: My son has the same experience with science. He loves his science classes and does well in them. He won a prize for being the top student in the school's 11/12 Biochemistry elective. He tutors other kids in science. He loves reading and talking about science. He has great relationships with the science faculty. But he barely considers the possibility that he might become a scientist. (There are days when he thinks about med school.) And a big part of it is that he doesn't do all the competitions and research that the "real" science kids do. Another part of it is that he wants to keep as far away as he can from the hyper-competitive relationships among the science kids. He has lots of friends -- most of them -- who are science kids, but part of what makes the relationships work is that their head-to-head competition is limited to the classroom, which is only part of their lives.</p>
<p>I don't consider that much of a tragedy, though. If he really wanted to do research, he would do it. He's not moving away from science because he thinks he's not good enough; he's moving away because he's finding himself more turned on by non-science things than he would be by doing a research project. (And I will reiterate, for purposes of clarity, that the competitive science environment in his school is entirely kid-generated; the parents and their connections have little or nothing to do with it. It is not as bad as what you describe.)</p>
<p>You should move here (Philadelphia area)! Many great schools in many flavors, tons of culture and research opportunities outside the classroom, but nowhere near as cutthroat an atmosphere as I sense on the 'GIsland or other NY suburbs.</p>
<p>The GFG:</p>
<p>S1 was a good student, but he refused to take AP-math or AP science (which meant there were not many other APs for him to take. His GC had argued very hard for him to take AP-Calc, and he had the grades for it and for AP-sciences, but he did not see himself as a scientist, so he refused to go along. But he was accepted at several 10 top schools (not HYP, to which he did not apply). And he got an excellent education.</p>
<p>I think one problem of living in a competitive community, and I know of many such, is that everybody feels the need to compete for admissions to the same colleges. There are many wonderful colleges out there where students can get as good an education as at HYPSM (and some might say better).</p>
<p>GFG, I had no idea you were considering moving. I didn't mean it literally, just was contrasting the environment you are in which I have heard about through others as well, with where we live. I definitely live in a gentler place. I live in Vermont. I just know that SOME folks (not talking you now) wouldn't even consider living in a place like this. They'd say, "schools are not good enough" or not enough to do or whatever. I even know people here who send their kids off to boarding school for a "better education." I can think of a boy my kids went through school with since nursery school who went off to prep school out of state for a better school. It is interesting that he is ending up entering Brown this year where our D goes who went to school locally. I realize he did have a different high school experience which should be the reason to send one's kid to a private boarding school but I have a feeling that some do that here as a way to get into a "better college." Very good students here can still get into these colleges anyway. </p>
<p>I live in a beautiful place and it is not for everyone. Some would not like this pace of life. Some would crave it. We didn't pick where we live for the schools. We picked it for the lifestyle. Our kids have done just fine anyway. I don't miss the situations you describe in suburbia. Just to be clear, I grew up in suburbia. I went to college in an urban area. I now live in a rural area.</p>
<p>marite, you make an excellent point. In those real competitive communities (and frankly I see lotsa kids like that on CC too), there is an Ivy or bust mentality. I read posts like "I had to settle for Rice," "I had to settle for Wellesley." etc. I just shake my head. It is all perspective. Anyone I know would think those are fantastic schools. It boils down to perspective. It is disheartening to read kids who post who feel like going to JHU, Georgetown, or Tufts , etc. is some big let down or "failure"!</p>
<p>Kids where I live would be perfectly happy with Rice, Emory, WashU, Univ. of Chicago, etc., but getting into those schools from our HS was not as easy as you might have expected. There were actually students ranked in the top 30 of my S's class of almost 600 students who were not admitted anywhere but the flagship state school (though they were on wait lists at places like that).</p>
<p>The GFG:</p>
<p>Sometimes students who think of some schools as places to "settle for" rather than their top choices do not put the effort into their apps that they should. And if their profile is strong, without the show of real interest, the schools will believe that they are fall-back options for the applicants (Tufts syndrome). Time and again, we see students with strong stats being turned down for some other student with somewhat weaker stats. No hook, tip or other advantage can really explain why they are turned down. So that is why I do not like to evaluate the strengths of an applicant from the description of the stats and ECs alone.</p>
<p>Good point, marite, that might be what was going on.</p>
<p>Was just reading the regional newspaper and saw this headline: "Unscheduled Fun: Parents leave time this summer for their children to do what they want". The article profiles several NJ families who have decided (brace yourself for this shocker!) that they would give their children some down-time this summer. One family claims that they decided to take a laid-back approach, which for them consisted of signing up their 10 and 11 year olds for a three-week, all-day camp and a week of tennis camp. "But there are moments when a little guilt creeps in" the mother admitted, when she hears about all the enrichment activities other kids are doing.</p>
<p>The GFG:</p>
<p>ROTFL! I have to say, though, that S1 loved going to his 6-weeks music camp and S2 complained of being bored one week after returning from his 5-weeks academic camp before we set off on our vacations.</p>