<p>GFG,
With those admissions results of those top 30 kids in your school that you reported, it could be what Marite mentioned....lack of showing strong interest in what the students may have perceived as "fall back" schools. This can be a problem. I have to say that my own kids put equal amounts of effort in showing interest to all of their schools, from reach to safety. That is important to do. </p>
<p>But I also think another reason may be possible for what you saw. There are pros and cons of going to a highly regarded high school. One of the cons can be that a very good student is "competing" against his/her fellow students for slots at a small number of colleges that they all want to go to (you know the ones!) and very selective schools prefer diverse student bodies and don't want to take a huge number of kids from any one particular HS. So, while kids coming from known high schools have some advantages over kids like mine from an unknown rural high school (i.e. ongoing reputation and relationship with colleges; colleges knowing they got a strong education in HS, etc), in other ways they may be at a disadvantage, whereas someone from an unknown HS may be one of only two kids trying for the same college, though lots of the colleges don't know our HS which can also be a con that way. </p>
<p>We all know that it is so tough getting into selective schools. But I would have to really know more about those top students who you said only got into their state U and no place else. SOME students, and I see lots of these on CC, do not have appropriately balanced college lists. They often have very selective schools only and then sometimes the state U tacked on. They have no very good match schools that are "in between" or even safeties other than state U's (though state U's are truly fine if that is a school you like....some seem to have it as an afterthought if all else fails rather than finding good safeties they truly like). So, I'd need to know more about their actual lists. I think a top 5% of the class kid from your HS should be able to get into a more selective college than average but it is a matter of a student realizing that there are many many really good and selective colleges beyond the Ivies and even the ones you mentioned like Rice, Emory, Washington U and UChicago...There are some college lists posted on CC from real good students, which bongle my mind.</p>
<p>By the way, while my own kids opted to go away for six weeks every summer (unrelated to any relationship to college admissions but purely strong passions to do these activities they love, and still are away all summer now that they are IN college), they were the rare ones where we live. Very few kids here either go away or go away for longer than a week or two of a program. A few do, but they are in the minority.</p>
<p>Yes, I think both factors you point to were in play. One child for certain did not have a well-balanced list; he only had the Ivies and top schools such as those I mentioned, with the state school tacked on. Part of the competitive frenzy here also stems from our district being a wannabe sort of place which is trying to claw it's way upward to compete with the slightly better known elite districts and private schools around us. Thus while our HS may be almost as good as those in the Princeton area, we're not Princeton so we don't seem to get the same placement for kids with the equivalent stats. I don't recall anyone from recent years getting into Harvard on Yale, for example, though they seemed qualified enough.</p>
<p>My understanding is that Princeton High students are allowed to take classes at Princeton. It must be very impressive to HYP--even more so, I would assume, than Boston-area kids taking classes at the Harvard Extension school. So this is one of life's unfair advantages--like proximity to a research lab where mentors can be found.</p>
<p>Ha, I have an interesting story about that scenario. Years ago there used to be an occasional advanced student now and then from our HS who would take a class at Princeton too, before the HS had its current full complement of AP courses. But this year, there was in fact one senior who was taking a class at the university and it was no secret that this student really, really wanted to get into Princeton. She also worked after school at a well-known local institution, which sounded like quite an impressive accomplishment (unless you knew like we did that her mother was an employee!). Anyway, our principal was so proud of this kid that he bragged to an acquaintance of mine that he was grooming her for Princeton and was fairly certain she would get in. Well, she didn't get into Princeton, to any other Ivy, or to most of the colleges to which she applied. That shocked quite a few people!</p>
<p>Ha, indeed.<br>
I happened to read an article on the Daily Princetonian (back in the days when S was considering applying there). And it suggested that Princeton only wanted to take in kids whose high school did not offer specific courses. I assumed the impressive kids would be those who had gone beyong AP. Taking introductory-level classes at Princeton (or anywhere else) might not be that impressive.</p>
<p>There are fads which come and go among ambitious HS students who are aspiring to the elite schools. Taking college classes is one, starting one's own charity and raising lots of $ is another, and doing ridiculously advanced research and winning Intel is yet another. And with that, I return us to the original topic which regrettably I seem to have highjacked. Thanks to all for your kind indulgence!</p>
<p>This is how the Seimens-Westinghouse STF operates:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Kid needs a good EC because playing cello in the local orchestra for 12 years isn't good enough</p></li>
<li><p>Kid goes to local hospital/university</p></li>
<li><p>Kid's parents or friends get him job in forementioned institution</p></li>
<li><p>Job is in some sort of biomedical engineering lab</p></li>
<li><p>Ph.D.'s in lab have been working for 10 years on "Dystrophic Skeletal Muscle Cell Membranes Patched by Ploxamer 407"</p></li>
<li><p>Kid has no idea what the heck said report means</p></li>
<li><p>Kid helps out in lab by filling petri dishes and turning on the centrifuge.</p></li>
<li><p>Kid reads about Science Fair and says, "I'll enter the project that I've been working on"</p></li>
<li><p>Kid enters project that he didn't do and doesn't understand.</p></li>
<li><p>Kid wins because he had 6 Ph.D.'s and 12 Ph.D. candidates working on this project.</p></li>
<li><p>Kid sends project to the Ivy League where he recieves such accolades that they can't accept him fast enough.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>It's not always like this, but do you remember in 3rd grade when you did science fair and everyones project sucked because it was 3rd grade, and there was one that looked like it had been done by a high schooler (i.e. kid's parents)- it was probably the same kid.</p>
<p>Perhaps you should actually try reading the thread before degrading some of the most accomplished kids my age. </p>
<p>And even if you are close-minded enough to still to come to this conclusion after reading what others have said, perhaps you should learn how to spell the name of the competition you are satirizing.</p>
<p>I don't know what kind of competition you think this is but someone must have been real nice to you to give them so much slack. "most accomplished kids my age" sounds like maybe I'm not the only close minded one in this forum. Just tell me how it is that these kids can write Ph.D. disertations in HS?
Oh, and sorry mom for the misspelling, I'll do better next time!</p>
<p>These kids DID do most of the work on their part of the project themselves. If you look at the projects, they are not all so hard that it's impossible for a high school kid to work on it. </p>
<p>If it was like you stated, that the kids "fill[ed] petri dishes and turn[ed] on the centrifuge," then they obviously wouldn't be writing up a report. Nor would their "PhD scientists" be writing them recommendations and allowing them to have most of the credit. Do you really think scientists are that bogus that they'd let a high school student who did , as you insinuated, nearly nothing take the credit? Are adults that ethically challenged? </p>
<p>Hey, maybe there are some smart kids in this world. And who knows, maybe some of them care enough to devote lots of time to a project! At the risk of sounding egotistical, I go to a math/science focused school where we have a mentorship program. We DO find our own mentors, we DO do our own work, we DO enter this contest with our own papers, and once in awhile we get a finalist. But it's the process that teaches us the most and it's that experience that we want. It absolutely does not mean that we don't do the work ourselves.</p>
<p>Maybe it could be because my sister and I were some of them?</p>
<p>Maybe it could be because your generalizations bear no semblance to reality?</p>
<p>In your post, you manage to impugn and falsify my motives for working in a lab, way of getting into one, work I did there, comprehension of the project I carried out, people who helped me, and results of that experience.</p>
<p>P.S. And you are about 130 pages off when you refer to these kids' papers as "Ph.D. dissertations."</p>
<p>Halopeno2
Very clever...and I, as well as numerous others who have PMed me, agree with you entirely...but you won't be finding no love on this board...the parents here are quite convinced that their progeny are misunderstood and maligned. As you can tell...no one really has a sense of humor about any of it.</p>
<p>To summarize the objections of some on this thread, the amount of time and work these students have invested in the projects is not at all in question. It is clear that they worked very hard and learned a good deal.</p>
<p>What IS in question, I think, is whether the student truly selected a specialized topic of personal interest (that is, it was not chosen for him), studied it in the depth required to fully understand it (which perhaps involved finding an expert to help him), then as a result of his OWN newly acquired knowledge and understanding was able to pinpoint a researchable problem (as opposed to being assigned one by a lab or mentor), formulated his OWN workable hypothesis, and designed the experiment by himself. While we all acknowledge the need for mentors in today's world of science, the important question is whether the nature of the project was such that a high school student (albeit an exceptional one) could in a short period of time TRULY acquire the expertise necessary to carry it out himself with some occasional guidance and assistance. If he could, then fantastic. But if the development of the project more closely resembled spoon-feeding, then shame on everyone.</p>
<p>I agree with GFG. You don't work in a lab as a high school student and come up with an award winning project yourself. If that is the case then they are doing the research for the wrong reasons. It takes time and dedication yes, but simply because you spend time in the lab doesn't give you the wherewithal to act like the research is your own. I'm not sure if any of you who are telling me off have been in a research environment. My guess is you have not. I have, and to be completely honest, there is not a high schooler on this planet that can just pick up a topic and run with it into a $100,000 top prize. Students who are in undergraduate biological studies can't comprehend what these "geniuses" are doing. So if there are kids out there that can isolate the iNOS proteins with gel electropheresis without anyone helping them, I'd love to get coffee sometime and talk with you.</p>
<p>Intel/STS doesn't expect a high schooler on this planet (or...any other planet) to pick up a topic and run with it into a $100,000 top prize. It is expected they will get help.</p>
<p>From my post #396, taken from the STS website:</p>
<p>"Many Intel STS participants take part in a science training program to help them with their projects. This link takes you to a list of more than 300 training programs that take place throughout the year at colleges and universities."</p>
<p>StickerShock, thanks for the love, glad to see that someone isn't so high strong that they are willing to get ****ed off about some guy talking about science fair.</p>
<p>You sounded much more annoyed than any of us with your listings post.</p>
<p>So halopeno2, what is it that you think we should do? I understand that you think that the many students who win Intel/whatever don't deserve it. What do you think should be done? Should we get rid of that award system entirely? You've pointed out what YOU think are the problems with it. What would you do fix them?</p>
<p>I think we should bag the whole thing. This contest is like commending baseball players for using steroids and giving them extra accolades because of it. What do you think we'd do with baseball in that situation. We'd bag it too. You can't honestly say you'd endorse a competition where no one was doing their own research</p>