<p>Geetha:</p>
<p>Can you point to posts that suggested "that kids from India and China who who won scientific competitions within limited parameters are cheats" ? I must have missed those.</p>
<p>Bethie, I'm glad you pointed out the kiwi fruit thing. I'm always saying how I like to put kiwis in my fruit salads. Sounds a little cannabalisitic, now. Certainly not vegetarian.</p>
<p>How did kiwi fruit get into this thread? Anyway to be even more offtopic, kiwi fruit actually is native to China rather than than New Zealand, but the New Zealander improved it so it can be a commerical fruit. See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Fruit%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Fruit</a>.</p>
<p>You are new.Here everything can come in play under any subject. People can say anything they want (just don't insult).</p>
<p>Thanks simba</p>
<p>I tend to be a little off-topic because I sort of think everything relates to everything else. The kiwi fruit came up in my mind because the subject was cultural sensitivity, at least in my so-called mind it was. I learned about the kiwi/kiwi fruit distinction from a flight attendant when we were flying to NZ, a most excellent country. If I hadn't been told that, I wouldn't have known and if I hadn't had the most incredible chai in India (in biodegradable clay cups) I wouldn't have known about that either.</p>
<p>well if chai belongs why not kiwi ?</p>
<p>The InStar program at WMHS is essentially empty. There are no āinsāā¦however, I would say that Jiang, the final winner,didnāt have original research, and I feel as someone with a molecular biology background, that any High schooler cannot grasp the real meaning of molecular bio/genetics/oncology. Experience plays a huge role, you canāt just learn the molecular pathways by rote, you have to LIVE them, put in the hours doing a 12 hour Organic/biochem lab, spend Sundays holed up in a lab, put in the hours as a POSTDOCā¦I would state that his research/answer was GIVEN to him. Impossible that he would comprehend the significance of his medical/oncologic research,or thought it up originally. And I know him.His topic is actually his Dadās ( bio researcher) research!With respect to getting an āinā at a Stony brook res.lab, this is not true. Most labs require you to submit your SATs/class rank, I know the Ben Chu lab at SUNY does that.Anyways, my D emailed him and about 20 research profs asking for a summer position,coming from InStarā¦didnāt get a SINGLE acceptance from any of them,even though she had 2300+SATs and a class rank of top 2% and got outright rejected by this āprofessorā Chu. I told her, ignore them, what do THEY know about true academia and the nature of research?? She didnāt win semifinalist at Intel,even coming fr INSTar ā¦I told her, Intel means NOTHING to your future, Intel is a travesty.Long story short, she got into Columbia,and is quite happy there. WITHOUT the āvauntedā Intel award, without even being considered by 20 SUNY professorsā¦there is something drastically WRONG with this system when it can completely ignore someone with that kind of academic talent ( sorry, but Iām proud of my D),and give the go ahead to some kid with zero people skills,that just wants to get into med school to become a rich cardiologist. Very Very Wrong.</p>
<p>^^you have revived a 5 year old thread that was clearly dead, to do what? rant?</p>
<p>[summary of 90% of parents forum posts] blah blah blah my kid this that, my kid, did i mention my kid? my kid is great. my kid is a genius my kid did this and he also did that. i love my kid. my kid is at harvard. whatās hard for your kid isnāt hard for my kid. oh by the way, <em>something mildly related to topic</em>[/summary]</p>
<p>i need a break from cc</p>
<p>Reviving a thread to confirm the lack of integrity of the Intel competition is always interesting. Balances the obvious burying by insiders.</p>
<p>The kids who do these intense research collaborations should receive kudos for their initiative, intelligence, and dedication. However, they should not be presented as scientific innovators / geniuses if they acted more as puppets than puppeteers. Playing one drum beat with the NY philharmonic is not being solo violinist. This seems a bit like the academic arms race.</p>
<p>GoBlueJays: totally right. But most of the college game is just thatā¦a game. A rather meaningless one at that. Menloparkmom: Ranting helps to prevent ulcers while one is playing the game. DoinSchool: I feel ya. Totally loved your post. Xiggi: HI! Bogney: depends on the piece of musicā¦</p>
<p>There would have to be an actual musician here, darn it. However, timing one drum beat, while requiring skill, surely has to require less skill and timing than that required of a featured soloist of any sort. It seems like some of the high school science project winners are presented and lauded as soloists when they are member of the chorus at best, and sometimes merely appreciative audience members allowed on stage. I am sure that there are exceptions. Credit should be given when due, but not exaggerated.</p>
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<p>This is exactly right.</p>
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<p>I donāt think they are presented that way. I think it is more that people donāt really understand the process. The award is primarily for doing the work in the lab, troubleshooting the problems (which are always there,) and for understanding the research, being able to communicate it, and to field questions about the limitations and future directions of their study. Also, as they mature it is realistic that they will be able to anticipate what the next step should be to put together a story. Rarely, a student will come up with their project completely on their own, and those guys have a good chance of making finalist (though not every finalist does this, some of them are āsoloistsā as you put it). (One example of this is the recent Intel winer Evan OāDourney). However, this is also rare at the graduate levelāeven at a top 5 school.</p>
<p>Paint by the numbers process!</p>
<p>Perhaps part of the problem is the way winners are lionized in local papers that gloss over the details to focus on the victory. That is not the participantās fault. We like to mythologize winners.</p>
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<p>My guess is that the newspaper writers typically donāt really understand the process either. Hence, the āexposeāā.</p>
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<p>I guess I donāt get your negativity, xiggi. The Intel process is similar to award for graduate work (or at least undergrad research), no more, no less. I was at a top 10 school where the winner of the grad school research award for the dept. didnāt come up with the ideas himself, certainly not the large overarching project. He generated a lot of work with his own two hands, troubleshooted the lab techniques to get data (which is what grad school is about,) and was able to intelligently talk about his work as well as fielding questions about how othersā work impacted his. Eventually, you do have ideas, but these are most often applying techniques and approaches from other peopleās papers to your ownānot exactly breakthroughs. Independence as a researcher comes gradually, and I donāt think development in that area should be dismissed as āpaint by numbersā¦ā </p>
<p>However, as I noted before, I have seen Intel finalists who did absolutely come up with and execute their own projects themselves. The theoretical or applied math projects are typically done wholly by the student. And occasionally, some of the other ones are invented by the student.</p>
<p>off topic but what the heck:</p>
<p>collegealum314
There is a thread about math acceleration in middle school. Are many middle/high school students being pushedā¦ Do you have time to go there and compare math education in the US and Internationally? Or the interest? If so, thanks in advance.</p>
<p>edit for current topic relevance: Some kids do do intel on their own. Believe it or not.</p>