I hope I am not telling tales but I think Ohio’s sport is football.
With those sort of ratios in fencing I would expect the process to be different for sure. That could account for the opacity, as no one wants to hack off someone they might need to work with someday. I would guess recruiting classes are pretty small too.
So it sounds as if we all cover quite a spectrum from big NCAA sports to niche, and across both genders. Yes, fencing recruiting classes are pretty small. Also, in fencing, there are specific weapons. The number of scholarships and likely letters (at the Ivies) are relatively set numbers, around 4-5/year, and must be shared among all weapons. Students who can gain admissions based solely on academics, or perhaps with the coach’s help but no recruitment slot, can usually train with the team, but seasonal competition slots can be limited, leading to narrower regional slots, and only 2 NCAA Championship slots per gender, per weapon each season. What’s it like for you?
Btw, Bobcat, I literally shuttled back and forth with my older daughter between UVA and W&M as her finalist choices. She ultimately chose UVA for a variety of reasons, no negative toward W&M, just different, and just finished her freshman year in Charlottesville. Congratulations on your daughter’s choice and accomplishments.
@BrooklynRye I’m not sure if that was a specific invitation but – our experience is D3 Men’s soccer.
Like anything I’m involved in, I love to roll up my sleeves and research, so I found all kinds of sites describing the D3 process, timeline, questions to ask, when to ask them etc. Not all the advice was consistent, but there was enough overlap I had a basic timeline and structure. Club and high school coaches were kindly but not able to do much since my kid was looking outside the geographic area/type of schools they knew.
Before 11th grade, we started building a list of 20+ schools of interest, which met his general academic and other needs and priorities, and ranged from safety to reach in terms of admissions. During 11th grade, he emailed coaches, met with them on college visits, and continued to research schools and soccer programs. Together, we looked at rosters and streamed games to learn more about whether he would likely fit in terms of quality of player and style of play. After our spring break visit trip in 11th grade, he (and we) knew which 5-10 schools were his best fits, academically and athletically. We designed his summer camp schedule to get him playing in front of those 5-10 coaches, but couldn’t hit all of them both because of cost and conflicting schedules. In the fall of senior year, coaches within decent driving distance came to games, my kid was emailing back and forth with coaches regularly, sending updated film etc. During this time, some coaches who had been initially very enthusiastic had stopped returning emails and some coaches who hadn’t been especially interested became much more so. I thought, could be wrong, there were a couple of places where he stayed in the mix longer than he would have otherwise because he fit well with the team culture, in terms of work ethic, respect etc., even though he was not quite the same caliber player on the field. Throughout this time, he was going on campus visits to watch a match, interview, visit class, hang out with team members, and talk more with the coaches. By the end of the fall season, he had roster spot offers from a handful of schools, with one strong preference and two which he would have been happy with. The others were good options but not his favorites. He made his decision, and voila.
Among the many lessons learned: (1) Showcase camps (games only, no training) can work for the player who makes everyone gasp, but there is little opportunity for team chemistry to develop and really is “every man for himself.” Works for some kinds of players (not my kid). (2) Ask the follow up question: “what happens next in the process? When will you decide? Is a roster spot guaranteed? For how long?” Sometimes, we heard what we wanted, and didn’t ask the follow up, perhaps because we wanted to savor what sounded like good news without hearing the possible downside. Could have spared a little confusion if we had been more specific, especially in the fall of senior year. (3) When visiting campus for a match, sitting in the bleachers and talking with parents of current players was valuable – we learned a lot about the campus and team culture.
@Midwestmomofboys - Thank you so much! This is exactly what I am looking for. Thank you!!
@BrooklynRye Phew, because my kids think I talk too much and that includes here on CC.
All kids think their parents talk too much…lol. I just think that our shared experience in this area can be very beneficial and educational to all of us. Despite the differences in our sports and, of course, in our kids and personal circumstances, our experiences will overlap in many areas. Of course your experiences in soccer will vary from mine in fencing or Bob’s in lacrosse, but it felt very good to share in the experience as you expressed.
My D, a track runner, is a bit younger than Jordan Hasay. Before Mary Cain, Hasay was the best female high school runner in US history. So we followed the story of her college search with interest. One detail that fascinated us was that on July 1 after her junior year, Jordan only received a handful of recruiting phone calls from college coaches. I think she got 7. Her father, and certainly the rest of us fans, expected her phone to be ringing off the hook non stop that day. The common wisdom we all believed was that when someone is that good of an athlete (eg. someone who can run competitively at the Olympic Trials as a high schooler), all the coaches of the top programs would actively court him or her. It didn’t really happen that way. Frankly, a lot of things in recruiting didn’t follow the pattern we expected based on our formal and informal research. And yes, my D was in fact a high level recruit with great SAT scores and grades (and superb social and communication skills too, by the way). Even so, just allow me to say it took a long time for us to figure out exactly where she stood with coaches. It wasn’t that obvious, even after asking direct and pointed questions. In fact, a gentlemen high up in the track and field business in our state–a man who helps organize Nike Nationals and other big meets in the region–told us we were delusional that she was being offered a slot by her school and we must be misunderstanding the coach. Guess what, D did indeed received the special application envelope and was admitted. He was wrong. If it were that easy to judge, shouldn’t someone like that have known?
I actually think this coach runs into these problems a lot less because she is in a sport with only a few teams competing for her players. I looked her up and almost all of her players are from outside her area, and several are from the same club team. This tells me that some coaches have her phone number and are ‘feeder programs’ to this school. If she were really seeing the obnoxious players she describes in her letter, that information would travel back to these preferred teams/coaches very quickly.
For my own daughter’s team, it was a quirk that she and another member of her club team ended up at the same new college program, but we didn’t know the other girl was interested. I am sure that the girl who came this year and the two coming next year from this club were steered toward it by club coach. The college coach now trusts the club coach to be honest in the assessment of the players, and the club coach knows that the college coach will be fair with the recruits, in how she rewards them with athletic aid, in how she plays them, in how she treats the families. It also doesn’t hurt to have team members talking up the school, and my daughter was ‘encouraged’ (frantic text “Call LT! I want her!! Convince her to come!!!”) by her coach to contact a preferred recruit last year. My daughter is thrilled to be reunited with her as they played well together. Yes, now it is a ‘feeder’ club.
I don’t know about rugby, but in girls soccer and lacrosse the kids being recruited are often 14 and 15 years old. Um, yes, the parents are involved! The kids are scared and awed and have no idea what is going on with the financial aspects of recruiting and often not with the school admissions either. Maybe they aren’t mature enough to respond to a text from an adult, but that doesn’t mean they won’t be mature enough in 2-3 years. My daughter was 16 when she signed her NLI. Sixteen. I’m not sure I wanted her texting with 28 year old coaches without my knowing what the conversation was about. Why is the coach texting? And why were they texting during high school hours? How rude of THEM. What are these all important questions the student didn’t respond to? I found a lot of the coaches to be quite immature themselves. Some of the communication and sending stuff to the coach was done by me because I did it from the office where I had a scanner and fax. If the coaches didn’t like that, then we weren’t a good match for that program.
I am curious as to how this works with soccer and lacrosse @twoinanddone. We regularly hear talk at our public high school about freshman and sophomores being “recruited” by colleges. For fencing, athletes cannot be officially recruited until July 1st of their junior year in HS. There are earlier, non-binding commitments of some of the elite recruits, but these are not generally publicized and I have never heard of any as early as the soccer and lacrosse commitments. Are the NCAA recruiting rules different for your sports?
@BrooklynRye, yes my direct experience is with football although I have some secondary experience with baseball and wrestling primarily (kids I coached &/or good family friends). As many of us have gone over a bajillion times on the athletic recruit board, football operates very differently from the majority of the sports discussed on these forums. Whether that is because of the much larger numbers involved, because it is a more mature sport, because frankly the rules were written for football and basketball recruiting, or because the spotlight is brighter and hence it is harder to bend the rules is anybody’s guess. On the other hand, from reading some of your prior posts and those of other fencing parents, football recruiting does seem to operate like fencing recruiting in its fairly strict compliance with the NCAA recruiting calendar (which is far more specific for football than other sports) or the Ivy Common Agreement. So who knows?
One thing that I think has a significant impact on the differences in recruiting between sports is what appears to be the preeminence of club coaches in a lot of sports recruiting. While I believe that all high school level coaches wield an immense amount of influence in recruiting, club coaches in some sports seem to wield out sized influence. We all know of kids/families who are paying through the nose to get junior or junior-ette on a particular travel or club team because that club has the “contacts” with college programs. Personally, I saw this with JO volleyball and travel baseball when my kids were still competing in those sports. You see echos of this all through the athletic recruit board as well. Maybe this exists because the high school either doesn’t support the particular sport or plays it at a rudimentary level. Maybe it is because in the smaller sports college coaches don’t have the resources available to do a lot of “on the ground” recruiting. Either way, it is important to remember that there is really no effective regulation either by the state high school organizations or by the NCAA of the relationship between club coaches and college programs (excepting basketball where this whole phenomenon started). That to me is very dangerous.
Another consequence I think of the club sports system relevant to the issue at hand is that there is a higher potential to produce the “stage managed” kid that the article is directed to. Like it or not, participation in some of the less popular sports requires both a significant commitment from the family and severely restricts the available pool of athletes. Writing a 5k check every year for JO volleyball, or driving junior-ette an hour each way to practice gymnastics is very different than junior playing for his high school football team, or even a sponsored AAU basketball team. The more “skin” the parents have in the game, the more likely they will be to “participate fully” as it were in the process.
And one last point of clarification. My point about it being the recruit’s job to present themselves well is specific to discussion with the coaching staff and potential future teammates regarding the sport and the school. The parents do not have a role in that relationship, and will not be there everyday to make sure that junior is eating right, or getting in his lifts. Of course parents should be involved in financial discussions with the schools. I certainly would not have trusted my son, even as a 17 year old junior, to discuss the merits of a 1/3 scholarship at one school vis a 1/4 or 1/2 scholarship at another. I assume that balancing athletic aid with potential need or academic merit aid across a number of schools is extraordinarily complex even for a rising senior. How kids and families are doing that when the recruit is a freshman boggles my mind.
@twoinanddone, how is it your child was signing a NLI at 16? My understanding is that NLIs are signed by seniors.
http://www.nationalletter.org/signingDates/index.html
If you had a 16-year old senior, then that sounds like a special situation.
@BrooklynRye Thanks! We are happy to be though this phase of the process.
This whole process is guilty of very loose language, perpetuated by many of the players involved and the complexities between different sports and divsions. The 9th and 10th graders who are getting recruited have what is called a verbal offer. It is 100% non-binding and non-enforceable legally. It is between the coach and the player and can be rescinded by either one at any time as it officially doesn’t exist. In practice, coaches will rescind offers only in cases of academic or behavioral issues. The other situation where offers are rescinded are where the coach leaves which technically makes all offers null and void. I think the new coach will often try to honor commitments but the offerees may need to re-establish themselves a bit. Recruits sometimes will rescind offers but my sense is that it does not happen that often in my realm of knowledge.
The NCAA rules are different by sport but not that different, I don’t think.
To my understanding, even in fencing athletes are not “officially” recruited on July 1 of 11th grade. At that time, D1 coaches can reach out and communicate with recruits. Before that, coaches can’t initiate contact but can answer calls. D2 has a similar process but (I think) different dates. D3 has no athletic scholarships, so coaches can communicate anytime and in any direction.
Official recruitment is when the NLI is signed during 12th grade. That is the binding contract. Nothing is official until then.
I won’t relate our story in detail but I will share a few perspectives in another post. This one is too verbose already.
Just because I am a lawyer and can’t help myself, a prospective student becomes a “recruit” under the NCAA by laws when there is the first off campus personal contact between the coach and prospective student or the coach initiates a phone call to the prospective student. I do not know but assume that this definition may change with the change in the rule about texting to recruits.
And the most significant difference in the NCAA rules as written between sports deals with
The timing of various contact, quiet and dead periods. Basically these are the periods during the recruit’s junior spring and senior fall that govern when a coach can visit, call, email/write or must leave recruits alone.
The contact rules for early and February signing sports (football, soccer and men’s water polo?). Most sports can begin making phone calls to recruits on July 1 prior to the recruit’s senior year. February signing sports can not begin phone calls until September 1 of the recruit’s senior year. Some sports now have unlimited telephone contact (basketball in particular) subject to point 3 below.
The early mail/email/twitter contact period for men’s basketball and hockey. In men’s basketball, coaches may begin contacting prospective students beginning June 15 after sophomore year. In men’s hockey coaches can begin direct contact after January 1 of sophomore year. Coaches in all other sports are not supposed to directly contact recruits at all until September 1 of the prospective student’s junior year.
One of @Ohiodad51’s most insightful points is that the NCAA recruiting rules were really written for football and basketball. No wonder, when you consider that Penn State, which I believe has the largest number of NCAA teams in the country, funds all of those teams (with the possible exception of basketball), through its football program. The money, and accompanying risk of malfeasance, is staggering. This said, as you have surmised, fencing does seem to take a somewhat draconian stance on recruiting much more in line with a large recruiting sport rather than the niche sport it is currently.
Your remarks about the critical differences between high school programs and high school coaches versus private clubs and their in-house coaches are also very insightful. Sports such as football, basketball, baseball, lacrosse, and wrestling, appear to be relative staples in high schools throughout the country. It is relatively inexpensive and quite economically feasible to play a high school sport and look for at least local and regional recruitment opportunities from there. In fencing, with which I am intimately and extensively familiar, as well as in other niche sports, the prevalence of clubs definitely changes the recruiting game. As other posters pointed out, these clubs very often become feeders for particular NCAA programs, not unlike private schools that are feeders for particular colleges. The dangers you perceive in the largely unregulated relationship between club coaches and NCAA coaches are very real and ripe for abuse and conflict of interest.
I think the production of stage-managed kids and helicopter parents in sports is definitely more pronounced in niche sports. As you note, the investment in private club programs is far greater than in high school-sponsored sports. In addition, niche sports are often smaller, more intimate, and provide much more ground for parent over-involvement.
I think that it has been well established as to what posters mean when they reference a recruit’s obligation to represent him or herself. There are levels of maturity and experience, particularly dealing with finances, at which a student-athlete is simply not equipped to handle negotiations and possible commitment. Nevertheless, most parent over-involvement goes way beyond this. I did not attend any of my son’s interviews with college coaches other than when the coach insisted I be present in the meeting. His communications with coaches were written by him, using his personal email, and I only offered my opinion when asked. It was his job to make sure transcripts were available through his school guidance counselor, that standardized test scores were reported to schools in a timely manner, and that his application materials were prepared and fully ready to meet all deadlines.
My understanding concurs with Bob’s; that NLI’s are signed by seniors. Although I understand the non-binding nature of these commitments, I think that this is beside the point. If most schools are honoring their oral commitments, short of substantial academic or behavioral issues on the part of the recruit, then these 9th and 10th graders are effectively committing to an NCAA program at the age of 14 or 15 years old. To say such a commitment is not binding on either side, is a bit of a fiction, not because it is not technically the case, but because in most instancesthe unofficial commitment is honored. I have heard this almost exclusively related to soccer and lacrosse. To my knowledge, this does not occur in fencing. The earliest I have ever heard a commitment to be is in the fall of junior year when the athlete was already 17 years old and within sight of the official eligibility date. In any case, you are correct, Bob, that even after the July 1st date, the recruitment is not binding. My son verbally committed, reciprocally, to the school of his choice in March of his junior year. He reiterated that commitment post-July 1st. He applied ED and received a Likely Letter in November.
Personally, I find the NCAA rules about contacts, visits and recruitment to be very confusing. To shortcut this process and to avoid running afoul of the rules, my son chose to initiate all contact with the coaches at his prospective schools and to initiate on-campus meetings as “unofficial” visits rather than wait to be feted at an official campus visit. This not only complied with all rules in an unequivocal manner, but also expedited the process. By the time my son verbally committed to the school his choice in March of his junior year, he had already visited (including tours and info sessions), most of the top DV1 fencing schools and met with nearly all of the coaches.
A few perspectives:
When we started down this road, the first thing to ensure was that the player in question wanted to play in college. Then figure out at what level. This will largely start off at (in my case) “D1 at Maryland” but should not stay there. As parents and children, you need to reach a shared understanding of what is desirable to both parties. There were schools that basically said “when can you start” to my D but they were not attractive in terms of academics, so we didn’t pursue them. But we knew that way before that coach-player conversation occurred.
Be brutally honest about your expectations and your child’s ability and level of interest. If they are playing now for fun and aspire to be a college club player, don’t push them beyond that. That said, if you get into the game, know the rules. If the sport in question has early D1 recruiting, you will need to play that game if that is your goal.
Separate this process from what your child’s friends are going through. It is more like getting a job than applying to college. You will have phone interviews ad in-person interviews and it will be a lot more qualitative. The skills built in going through this process have value even if the result is not perfect. I don’t think I spoke to more than a few adults in HS who weren’t parents of friends or connected with the school before I got a summer job. Your child will have spoken to many adults, most of whom they have never met and some of whom are likely idols by the time the process is done.
On that topic, you basically are getting a job and this job will require a significant year-round commitment. Make sure you cover athletic flexibility with the coach if it looks like it will be necessary. This is one of the places where I think parents can intervene. If you child wants to go to med school, you want to make sure they can take the required classes and do well in them. Some programs limit the majors their athletes can declare so ask about this ahead of time.
Know your story and find coaches who want to buy that story. If you are a gifted athlete but raw and undeveloped skills, you need to find a program that wants that. Some schools that are otherwise a great fit will not be a fit for these reasons. If the coach has only recruited girls who are over 5’6" for the last 6 years, your 5’3" player may not be a good fit. Don’t take it personally.
Coaches recruit whole people, so they may like or not like your child for what seem like strange reasons. Coaches will watch team and family dynamics and those may have a significant effect on your child’s status. Someone who cuts off their parent while they are talking might negatively impact their status if the coach thinks they will have the same experience.
Do not fall in love with any school before they make you an offer. Things change all the time and getting too invested in a school too early can be a big problem. I see this more in parents than players. Be very prepared and willing to move on if you aren’t getting the right messages. You have limited time (see below) so don’t waste it chasing dreams that will never realistically come true.
Find the right balance of focus and flexibility. I see some parents who send players to camps where it is well-known that the team is done recurring for that grad year. Anything is possible, but be realistic on your chances. Other parents have target lists that seem to change weekly. All this churn leads to confusion around the story and hesitation from coaches to move to the next step. Once you focus, make sure the schools know this. I know of a player who only wanted to go to one school, despite their lack of interest. Over time, she went to every one of their events and eventually got an offer because she convinced them to take a shot with her,
Time is the scarce commodity. There will be more events than you have (probably) money or (definitely) time to attend. Pick and choose the ones that make sense for your goal. The clock is always ticking, so don’t waste time on things that don’t advance towards the goal.
Have a timeline, We spend 8th grade preparing, 9th grade marketing, and 10th grade closing. If that didn’t work out, then the plan was to spend the balance of 10th grade marketing to D3 and 11th grade closing.
Know that this all could be over in a second. One injury could leave your child out of their sport forever, so don’t place too many bets on the sport. Taking an easier schedule in HS to boost AI scores for Ivy athletics seemed to me to be a very short-sighted choice, but it did rule out most of the Ivies for us from even getting a look.
Listen to as much advice as you can, but feel bound by none of it. Including this post! Many people have been through the process, but it could have been a long time ago, in a different sport, certainly with a different athlete, so adapt everything you hear to your individual situation and assume positive intent. Even when the evidence is otherwise.
At the end of the day, the athlete has to perform on the field. All the good grades and positive attitude will not carry much weight if they cannot play at the level required.
One other point is that in addition to NCAA restrictions on how/when college coaches can contract recruits, there are also restrictions that apply to contacts between college alumni and recruits. I believe those apply to any alum, not just booster club members closely associated with a college’s sports programs. Although I suspect a significant number of alums are totally unaware of this.
On another point, I think things are easier for all concerned in the club-focused sports as far as college recruiting goes, though certainly there are excesses in the club systems. I have my doubts, for example, that teenagers really need to travel cross country, several times per year in many cases, to play each other in volleyball.
Actually, @BrooklynRye I find all of my points insightful.
All kidding aside, I agree with pretty much everything in your last post, except for one of my own particular hobby horses, which is the danger/potential for abuse in early recruiting.
I have significant problems with 14/15 year olds committing to colleges whether that occurs in football (where it is rare but happens) or women’s lax where it is apparently pretty commonplace. Actually in sports like lax which are not only club heavy but equivalency sports I think the danger is greater. A couple things mentioned by @BobcatPhoenix I think illustrate this. First, cost of showcases, travel teams, etc. What I observed in JO and travel baseball was that club coaches pushed strongly to attend this or that tournament, or to try out for this or that “elite” team. Because the athlete is prohibited by rule from receiving any contact from colleges directly during the time recruiting apparently goes on in many of these sports, there is no external verification of the sunshine the club coach is shining about Joey’s potential desirability to colleges. I think that is really bad. Second, the impact of injuries in equivalency sports always troubled me. How do schools deal with a kid who committed to a half scholarship freshman year and then blew his or her knee out as a junior in high school and couldn’t play anymore? In football, most of those kids are “medicaled” meaning that they are put on scholarship by the institution but are not counted against the 85/63 cap. The decision to take a medical red shirt is public though, and therefore recruits/parents can see which schools are honoring their commitments to injured kids and which schools are maybe casting kids aside. Also, since football is a head count sport, there are no percentages to worry about. I have no idea how that process works in lax or soccer or diving, and I am not sure how a recruit/family would be able to ascertain (excepting information received from a club coach) whether a particular program routinely takes care of their “medical” kids or whether they squeeze them out. That would scare the heck out of me when trying to pick a college early on in high school.
Funny and true story. A college teammate of mine has a son who is now playing at our alma mater. My former teammate, his wife (also an alum), daughter (then student) and the aforementioned son (then a high school senior) attended an alumni event in NYC as the family had pretty much every year. Because my former teammate and his wife paid for the ticket to the event for their son, they were told they technically violated NCAA rules by giving a “benefit” to a recruit. How about them apples?
@BobcatPhoenix Thanks, great points. In our experience, getting the student to identify their academic and athletic goals really was the first, necessary step in this process. I had many conversations with other families who described their kid’s list entirely in terms of whoever offered the most money, regardless of division, academics, coach etc. It was often about bragging rights, not fit with future goals.
I would also echo your comments about the value of the kid’s experience in talking with coaches – learning how to talk in person, on the phone, handle disappointment and good news, with good manners and grace, is a great experience. It was fun to watch my kid progress from 10th grade nervousness in approaching a coach to the confident 12th grader who could chat comfortably with a group of coaches.
@Ohiodad51, that really illustrates how silly some of the rules are . . . it’s hard to get my head around a “violation” due to your friends buying a ticket for their own son. Although I guess in practice the alumni issues usually only come to light when it’s something egregious, e.g. buying a car for a recruit.
@Ohiodad51, I don’t have any direct experience but I have heard that if an athlete is in good standing and is injured on the field, the coaches will try to continue the support through graduation. There are no guarantees though!