Another nutty valedictorian story

Parents Forum
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<p>Folks, lets put this in the right context. This wouldn't happen in one of the typical surburban areas where most of the posters on this board reside. It happened in Florida - the State with one of the highest drop-out rates and the worst school systems around. Can't hardly blame this young woman for seeking challenges outside of the high school. </p>

<p>My brother is a highly educated PhD who runs one of Florida's larger companies. He and his wife are a big believer in public schools - and are doing their all to stay with the public schools. But come middle school, the kids are going to have to go to private schools. The particular area where he lives has (and there is some wealth there) has 25 of 28 elementary schools flunking No Child Left Behind standards, with the three passing schools being "fundamental" schools where the parents agree to participate in the schools and discipline is enforced. There is a waiting list of 9 to 1 to get in the 3 fundamental schools, unless of course, the kid is a person of color, in which case they get in automatically (the schools are tragically short of minorities - even though the only bar is parental participation). The poor souls in the other 25 schools can't transfer to another public school, notwithstanding No-Child Left Behind entitlements, because a federal court integration order would be violated (how ironic). Yes, Florida schools could use more money, but more than anything there is a culture that doesn't appreciate education in so many pockets of the State. I feel sorry for the kids, and in that vein, support the young lady receiving a valedictory award - at some level, excellence needs to be rewarded.</p>

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<p>do you mean that each student would be able to discover every other student's grades? That is such a wild idea to me,..report cards for all to see. Seems inconceivable in a country devoted to privacy-and for that reason, very cool.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I feel sorry for the kids, and in that vein, support the young lady receiving a valedictory award - at some level, excellence needs to be rewarded.

[/quote]

Agreed that she's an excellent student and deserves recognition - but I still wonder about being designated valedictorian at a school where you've never stepped foot in a classroom (as per the original article). I guess I'm wondering about the kid ranked second - he's off to Vanderbilt for engineering in the fall, which indicates he's no slouch academically. And what about the kid ranked #3? He/she would probably have been thrilled to be designated salutatorian and have the honor of addressing the class.</p>

<p>This illustrates the Law of Unintended Consequences, doesn't it? I'm sure the dual-registration program wasn't created with the expectation that such a thing could happen. The more I read about the wild variations in ranking and weighting across the US, the more I question the possibility of ever fairly designating a top student. I'm the mom of a val, and it was a proud moment - but I still don't know how much it means.</p>

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<p>As long as school districts are local oligopolies, anyone who is enrolled in that school district (in the formal sense) ought to be able to become val, even if the student seeks academic challenge by dual-enrollment classes. Why not?</p>

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<p>NYMomof2 - "Who needs ...."</p>

<p>Exactly so!</p>

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<p>Our school doesn't rank students nor does it select a valedictorian. Each department awards prizes to what it feels are the best students, independently of the others, and each year several kids walk away with LOTS of prizes. I can't think of a better way, though, and so I'm not complaining (my daughter got one award three years ago and my son, well he's a great kid!)</p>

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<p>tokenadult has it nailed, spot on. This young woman merely took advantage of the choices that the monopoly education system (assuming she is not rich and couldn't avail herself of a private school) offered her. If she is the best student, she ought to be honored accordingly, irrespective of how much time she did or didn't spend intellectually rotting in a typical Florida high school. Don't take this to automatically mean that vouchers or a variant are the answers to our education's systems problems - but there's often a lack of decent choices, even for average students. And really, she ought to be applauded for recognizing the weaknesses of the school systems and using public resources wisely. Shows quite a bit of discipline and focus.</p>

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<p>I went to school in England. Grades were out of 10. An 8 or 9 out of 10 earned you a star, a 10 out of 10 on an assignment two stars. 10 stars gave you a point for your house (a white card). Even though it was a public school, akin to our private day schools, it acted the same way boarding school did. Four colored houses, to encourage competition. Place tops in your sporting event on track and field day, get 1, 2, or 3 house points. Get a detention, receive minus one house point (yellow card). Get two or more detentions, receive minus two house points (red card). Several red cards = caning. Many many red cards = the slipper (the cat-o'nine-tails). Uniforms. Hierarchy of the prefects (students with various assigned responsibilities). Artificially-induced competition. Obviously, teamwork....if you did well, you would help your mates win the house cup. If you kept xxx-ing up, you'd bring them down, and they'd come down on you. At the end of each term (trimester) your report card consisted of comments from the teacher, plus your rank, e.g. 1st in maths, 17th in history, etc. In the forms (like 1st-6th "grade"), you would go up one or two forms at the end of the year, depending on how you did each year. So the amount of time you spent until graduating could vary a bit. Fairly Dickensian. Well, I exaggerate.
I went to school in France. Grades were out of 20. If you are Flaubert, you might get a 17 out of 20 on an essay. After all, 20 is perfection, so it won't happen. A 15 out of 20 is quite a good grade. Admittedly, you could get a 20 out of 20 in Math or Sciences occasionally--the nature of the study admits of perfection. Baccalaureate requires a study of philosophy. The test is not gameable. You can't cram for it. It test your cumulative knowledge, so sustained mastery is the only solution. 60% pass rate, first time. The other 40% repeat the final high school year. 60% of those pass second year. The rest try a third time, or go to very fine trade schools (rather than just being an apprentice for a single tradesman). Really hard to get into grad school. You have to do this two year thing after college where you are heavily tested at the end of each year. (The selection to become a teacher there is so severe that many great teachers try for the job for decades without success. After that, you will be admitted to a grad school.)
In the US, at boarding school, there were no A + grades given.
About 4% of the class had an A- or above.
Halfway between a B+ and an A- was Highest Honors.
A B+ was High Honors.
A B was Honors.
The valedictorian was clearly the person who worked harder than everyone else. Everyone was smart and talented, but you needed to work really hard to get above a B. The enrollment at the school is about 250-280 per class.
In the prior 50 years, only two students attained a straight A average for three consecutive trimesters of the 12 (in one case, the three trimesters were not in the same academic year...it was like winter, spring, fall terms).
In college, I dated a girl who was valedictorian at a good public high school in Michigan. But there were 5 valedictorians! See, anything in the A range (straight, minus, or plus) gives you a 4.0. So if you had all A minuses, you'd get a 4.0. If everyone gets an A, what exactly is the point of grades (what some call the objective grading method).
Thoughts on which system you all most approve of?</p>

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<p>... my schools recognizes the students with over a 4.0 at graduation, which seems to be roughly 3% of the class.</p>

<p>The only student who spoke was voted on by the other students, not the person with the highest gpa.</p>

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<p>I guess our school is the traditionalist of the bunch. Some will hate how we do it. I'd stop reading now. There's also a lot of bragging here (who me?) but it could be illustrative of the traditional way of doing it to some . </p>

<p>One val, there has never been a tie, they'd just keep splitting hairs till they had a winner. Written explanation of how each grade is calculated, is printed in the Handbook and distributed every year. 100 point scale that is then converted for weighted. I don't like how the grades are calculated, but it is in black and white and it does reward the hardest courses. It appeared to everybody that my D , who had the lead since the 2nd semester of freshmen year, would be "caught" by number two, an amazing young man. He was openly gunning for her and she was just as openly mounting a heck of a defense.</p>

<p>This being Texas, it was common knowledge that it would all come down to AP Bio. Also being Texas, we had everything but official cheerleaders. Don't get me wrong, we had cheerleaders, just not official. It was girls against the boys. Jocks against the arty kids. At awards night they counted down from student 14, giving grade points starting at about a weighted 4.0. At number five we passed last year's val's mark of 4.5. At 3 we passed the two year's ago val (our #3's brother LOL) at about a 4.6 , At number #2 a new school record of 4.725. He got a roar of approval and a sustained clapping session. At #1, a scant .007 points higher at 4.732, the 'smudge. She got a standing O. </p>

<p>Was it a competition? Yes, and it is billed as such in Texas. One kid, and one kid only from each Texas school gets a tuition exemption at any Texas college for the first year. There are no ties in val races in Texas (for the state exemption). </p>

<p>Was there gaming? No, all the top 30 kids except for one or two took the same number of weighted classes and off-campus classes (although kids #1 and #2 took more highly elevated classes online they were not weighted differently than the courses others were taking.) Hard to game when everyone is taking the same number of weighted classes.</p>

<p>Was it perfectly fair? No, probably not for either of them but had he caught her (and another.5 in Bio would have done it, we use the 100 point scale and they both had 99's , he needed a 99.5, which would round to 100 to get her), we had already decided that we would be happy with her performance and never raise any issues. I assume they must have decided the same thing. </p>

<p>Were these two the grade grubbers/grinders? I wouldn't think so. They were also the top two students on standardized testing (in the same order with about the same skinny margin), and split (with number 3 and number I think 10) the Departmental awards class awards which are just whatever criteria the teachers want to use. </p>

<p>And as to scholarships for val or other top rank? With the transparent way our school does it, I probably feel the way about them that the NMF folks feel about their kid's scholarships. Only I would point out that the val was earned over four years, not a few hours in a junior year practice test. (There are several things I dislike about the NMSQT Competition, but I'll admit that the foremost among them is my kid didn't score high enough to win the darn thing. ;))</p>

<p>Full Disclosure: My D would have received the same scholarhips from all her schools, except Texas state schools, even with a second (or third) place finish as all her scholarship offers were dependent on her rank at the end of the first semester senior year (most are this way) which was derived by the same formula. Further, #2 was NMF (he had smarter parents. He prepared some. D didn't finish the practice q's that came in the booklet she opened on the drive to the test :eek: . #2 parlayed his NMF into a full-ride at a top 75 research uni after being accepted at Princeton, MIT, and WashU. My D (Yale) and #2 are the first two Ivy acceptances in school district history (or at least memory). To further show how closely matched they were, they shared the District Math UIL Individual Championship. They tied. LOL.)</p>

<p>So, I have my issues with NMF, and y'all are free to have your's with val/sal. We're all just getting by the best we can. LOL.</p>

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<p>I am in VA. I transferred within the state of VA to the school I attend presently my junior year. When I came I was told my GPA was a 4.137. When applying early to JHU I was told my GPA was a 3.9 but for all intents in purposes for ranking it was a 3.8. But my junior year I had rigourous classes and all A's. Also when applying to JHU my transcript was sent with my 10th and 11th grade courses and grades deleted. During midyear I had a 4.5. Senior year took all AP's and made all A's. (I am a senior presently). When applying to scholarships in schools my Gpa and rank have been sent in this variety, at times to the same places: 4.1-#4, 3.9 (did not see), 4.5#1, 4.0 #6. So I got accepted at JHU but did not get selected for any of the private scholarships I applied too. The people with higher ranks and GPA's have lower grades and barely any honors or AP classes. The reason behind my GPA calculation was that I had the opportunity to take classes that students here did not. Not true. In fact the one that reigns as val. was a transfer too and she had the opportunity to take honors and ap classes and did not. I am penalized for having done exceptionally well in tough classes whereas other got to relax. Now I don't know if I will go to college. I got a good financial aid packet from JHU, but my father will not supply his tax papers and I do not meet independent status even though I do not live with him and he does not supply half support. My mom I have no contact with and have not seen in over five years. The system has failed me and I worked so hard but to no avail. Guidance hates me because I complain about my GPA and rank. I mean the more classes I take and the better grades I make the lower my GPA and rank goes. In fact they do not use the same scale to calculate my GPA. I know that being a minority can be a disadvantage but it is sad when you do work twice as hard and it is worse for you. Val status is so important to the scholarships in college so it can pose a problem or a setback for some students. Thats life I suppose.</p>

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<p>We are in Texas also and our district uses a similar method as curmudgeon's. It is a fierce competition, but everyone knows the rules from the start. Son has been number 1 for many semesters heading into his senior year, but we know how close it must be. He may slip by the end, but it was nice while it lasted. He really wants the free year's tuition.</p>

<p>We used to not weight classes. Everyone with a 4.0 tied for 1st. (They did separate it out to honor the one with the tuition waiver at the end of the senior year.) I prefer this way. I think if you can maintain 4.0, you should be able to share the honor. There is way too much pressure on these children.</p>

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<p>I'm with Montrose9272. Too much grade inflation. Scores should be set so an 85 is an A and no more than 6-10 kids per hundred get a grade that high. An A+ should be given out once a decade. With scores spread out it's easier to tell who really did superbly and who simply did well.</p>

<p>Every since the SAT was recentered, the lack of distinction at the high end of the scale has put extra pressure on kids because a really top student cannot outscore a slightly weaker but also excellent student. Furthermore a careless error drops you too low.</p>

<p>This is the standard grade compression problem. Imagine that 50% of the class got an A on a two question test with 0=F 1=B 2=A. Then a bright student who is careless would seem like a B student with one error.</p>

<p>On a test where the average is low (say 70), the numerical spread is large, and only a few get an A=85 or even 80, it is less likely that a random bit of carelessness will change the relative ordering of students. Thus grade inflation (which is really grade compression) punishes the very best students.</p>

<p>Top colleges know this of course, hence the tactic of judging top students by other metrics (such as performance on the Math Olympiad) to sort out the exceptional math students from the other kids in the Math 750-800 range.</p>

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<p>85 as an A? In our district, it's 93 or above. 85 would be a B</p>

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<p>As I mentioned, getting all A's is not that common here and only one person had a 4.0. However, 4.0 is as high as it goes (also there is no weighting but that is another issue). While more points are given for a B+ over a B, or C+ over a C, NO extra points are given for A+. You get the same points (4.0) for A or for A+. A+s are not too common but my D had several. Certainly it can be seen on the transcript so counts for something but not toward the GPA.</p>

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<p>my school didn't give A+, not even on the transcript</p>

<p>there's just entirely too many ways of calculating gpa... it makes it so you can't compare from one school to another.</p>

<p>ps the 12 year old who won the Geography Bee scored a 2310 on the SAT.</p>

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<p>I'm one of the 21 valedictorians from Winter Park High School mentioned in the original article. Basically, whoever gets the highest unweighted average gets Valedictorian. 21 of us have a cumulative 4.0 uw average. There are pros and cons to this... I don't really like the whole weighted average thing because our school has a magnet program in it (IB) that has different opportunities than the rest of the school in taking weighted classes. But I will say that having 21 of us makes it seem a lot less special than it should. I think the solution would be to have some sort of competition between those who have maintained a 4.0 uw average so as to pick one, but in this day and age of political correctness and nobody losing, that is unlikely to happen.</p>

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<p>So true. From 1974-1994 an 800 on SAT Verbal and Math was virtually unheard of. Nowadays, hundreds upon hundreds of students are getting them. I mean, a 690 was 99th percentile in Verbal, and a 750 was 99.9%ile. A 750 in Math was 99th percentile. These days, I have a couple dozen 800 or 790's a year among my students.</p>

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<p>Marite,</p>

<p>That's the point. The number you set at A level is arbitrary. You can make it as hard or easy as you wish. But if there's more space above the minimum, you make the tests harder and give the best more room to show they're the best.</p>

<p>So no use making it 93 if 40% get it.</p>

<p>But if only 5% get 85, then an 85 is more discriminatory.</p>

<p>The wider the range of nominal grades, the more informative the grades are.</p>

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<p>What about curving grades? Our school district has a rubric on what is A, B, etc. but I have a teacher who curves the grades like crazy. A 79.5 could count for an A. Granted, the class is extremely hard and he is really strict in grading tests, assignments, essays, etc. Half the class is failing, there's a handful of C's and D's, rare B's (all these according to his scale) and even rarer A's. There's only one person who actually got a REAL A in his class but his scale makes it so that a kid who doesn't do any of the assignments but does above average on the tests can make the same grade as a kid who works her ass off.</p>