Any good reason for a high testing junior to take the tests again?

Parents Forum
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<p>I'd enjoy hearing the thoughts of other parents (or any trolling college admissions folk) on this question. Son #2 is now a HS junior. A bright kid. He is good at taking standardized tests. He just received his SAT scores from the early December test date, and did very well, but not, I suppose you could say, spectacularly (mid 2200s). He also recently received his PSAT score, far above our state's historical score numbers for NMSF qualification. He also took the ACT last year as a sophomore, and received a near perfect score. (His essay scores for both the ACT and SAT were excellent, also.) His prep for these tests was simply to run through the online sample test/questions a day or two beforehand (his parents' encouragement to do a little more notwithstanding). He's also a very good, diligent student on pace to finish very high in his class, taking the hardest course load he can. His ECs are solid if unspectacular, but honest. (He's not a resume padder.)</p>

<p>The question is simple: Is there any good reason for him to take either the ACT or (more particularly) the SAT again? With additional maturity and classroom learning (and perhaps some more diligent test prep) I could see him "improving" his SAT score. But are we already at the point of diminishing returns?</p>

<p>Obviously you need the context of where he's considering attending school. (The flip answer is nowhere. I don't mean he's not intending to go to college, I mean he's just not very interested in thinking about it yet. The mail piles up on the desk. Nor does he have any certainty about what he wants to do, although he has mentioned computer science and foreign languages.) His current "measurables" already assure him of admittance to our state flagship, a "public ivy," and probably make him competitive at any top public. And there's as good a chance as any he will simply decide to go to the state flagship, as it's a great University with strong programs in his current fields of interest. But, despite the risk to my financial sanity, I don't want him to close the door just yet to the selective private universities. (Nor am I closing the door to LACs, although he seems more like a University kid, unlike his older brother, who is at a good LAC right now.)</p>

<p>So, that said, let's assume he decides to apply to selective private universities, e.g. MIT, CM, Rice, maybe an Ivy. Throw in a Swarthmore or Carleton. Do these schools honestly care if a kid has a 2260 or a 2340? Especially if his other measurables are all very good, too? At that point, won't a good essay or a nice EC presentation matter more to an admissions officer? My rational side wants to believe that every college admissions officer knows that the difference between a kid scoring in the 99th or the 99 1/2 percentile on a standardized test is which side of bed he got up on that morning or how much his stomach was grumbling during the exam. It also seems to me that an admissions officer might take into account that my son obtained his scores before he was halfway through his junior year, and might naturally assume he would have improved them if he had decided to take them again.</p>

<p>Or am I being naive? The irrational or anxious side of me wonders whether the admissions officers will wonder why he didn't take the tests again at the end of his junior year or during his senior year, or worse, in the new era of score selection or whatever it's called, wonder whether he did so and didn't report them because he did less well.</p>

<p>And a related question; should he report only his ACT score? It has the advantage of being even better than his SAT score, but the disadvantage of having been taken when he was a high school sophomore, so if that's all he reports there will be even a longer period of time on his resume about which the admissions officer might wonder "where did he go from there?" To me, the SAT result, if not quite at the level of his ACT result, is such that it should confirm the earlier score, not put it into doubt. So says my rational side, anyway. So why not report both? And I assume he'll take some SAT subject tests. Will reporting those scores also carry along the SAT score, making the question moot?</p>

<p>My son would of course rather not take these tests again. He finds them a bothersome way to spend a Saturday morning. I'm inclined to agree with him. But then I look at the shockingly low admissions rates at the most selective schools (naturally) and wonder again whether that last 20 or 50 or 100 points on a standardized test might actually make a difference. I hope not, but I don't know.</p>

<p>I apologize if this sounds boastful, as I don't mean it that way. I simply don't think I can get the answers I'm looking for if I don't put the data out there. Now seems like the right time to ask, because he could still sign up for the tests again later this year and because whether he likes it or not we'll soon have to start getting a little more serious about where he might decide to apply to, and that in turn will require some advance planning for spring and summer visits. </p>

<p>All input welcome. Thanks in advance.</p>

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<p>No need to retake....in my opinion</p>

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<p>Why waste a Saturday that could be spent taking SAT IIs? JK, but those seem like awesome scores, they just seem mediocre on CC. Actually, they're above average on CC which meanst they're AMAZING in real life. No need to retake IMHO.</p>

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<p>Remind him to study for the SAT II tests, and to take them when he finishes the subject- eg math at the end of a precalculus class. Do not do as my gifted son did- he waited until fall when taking calculus and said they were reviewing in that class, therefore extra study not needed- only got midrange 700's. We told him to retake it, long story, but he ended up retaking part I of the SAT, upped his mid +/- 700's to a perfect 2400. He had a 35 ACT he did not repeat. He unfortunately did not always get A's (you have to do homework for some teachers, as well as getting 100's on tests, etc) although unweighted gpa still high. Lots of AP's, EC's, only applied to two elite schools- did not get in. Happy and doing well in the UW Honors Program. BTW- not all of the schools you listed have student stats better than UW's. Even a 4.0 and perfect test scores are not a guarantee for elite schools but it doesn't hurt to have the best ones- especially since he has plenty of time to take them.</p>

<p>If your son is as strong willed/stubborn as ours it won't matter what you tell him to do. It won't hurt him to repeat the SAT, but it is more important for him to spend time studying for the SAT II's he will need, not to rely on past success in a subject. My son did not study for the SAT/ACT other than doing the practice tests.</p>

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<p>If it was only about the SAT, my answer would be:</p>

<p>650+800+800=2250 >>> retake.</p>

<p>750+750+750=2250 >>> do not retake.</p>

<p>But if he also has a 'near perfect' ACT (regardless of whether it was sophomore or junior or senior year) then you should let your son do what he wants:</p>

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<p>And do not get all hung up on the standardized test scores. He has just cleared one of many hurdles. The fact that he crossed one hurdle with room to spare will not help him with the other hurdles.</p>

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<p>Sometimes kids who scored a 35 want to take the ACT again to see if they can get a 36. To each his own.</p>

<p>I read somewhere on here that kids with a 32 or 33, which are in the 99th percentile, might - for the sake of some special scholarship or highly selective program that looks carefully at ACT scores - want to try again to see if they can score higher. </p>

<p>I have never seen anyone suggest that it is generally necessary for a student with a 34 or 35 to retake the ACT.</p>

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<p>I think the answer to this question is more complicated than it seems. Officially, and unofficially, elite colleges don't distinguish much between 2250 and 2400. And the slightly less elite colleges don't distinguish much between them, either, since 2250 is plenty high enough for them. I agree with everyone else who has posted so far in saying that four or five things are much more important than improving mid-2200s SAT Is, so that if it were a question of having to choose between one and the other re-taking the SATs would be the wrong choice. But it's not an either-or proposition -- one could improve the SAT scores AND do all that other stuff as well. And if the OP's son did that, his application would be marginally stronger. If the question were going to be a third test set, I would say no, but I think two shots at the SAT is so normal that no one would look askance at it.</p>

<p>However, with an ACT 35, if that's what he has, and the prospect of SAT score choice being in effect next year, I wouldn't bother retaking (or submitting) the SATs.</p>

<p>One further issue: SAT scores are relevant to some merit scholarship competitions, and for those there really could be a difference between 2250 and 2350.</p>

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<p>I agree with JHS.<br>
Also, as far as retaking the SAT, why not wait until all the other tests are done (namely SATIIs) and see if he wants to retake for the sake of a scholarship? He could do it next fall if he wants to and has a clearer idea of what he wants to do and where he wants to apply.</p>

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<p>My oldest daughter got 2220 junior year. When I hinted she might take it again, she told me nicely to get bent. She got into three top 10 LACs and William & Mary, so her strategy worked out fine. Your son's high school record sounds a lot like hers, albeit she had one particular EC that she pursued in depth.</p>

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<p>D is NMSF and knew she would be when she got her scores junior year as she was well above any cut-off.</p>

<p>Junior year March SAT was 2270: CR 800, M 770, W 700. Her GC told her not to bother with more testing. She didn't take the ACT, but her writing score bothered her. She honestly felt that 700 was not indicative of her ability. So she retook the SAT in May; she scored 2300: CR 750, M 750, W 800. </p>

<p>In terms of college apps.: many of her universities looked just at CR and M scores, and when W was included, looked at the CR and M as an entity and then the W score on the same test. Her first test would have been sufficient - score one for the hs gc :). However, a few of her reach schools superscore the CR, M, W and superscored she had a 2370 (as compared to the original 2270 - 100 points higher). So score one for my d :).</p>

<p>D did take three SAT IIs: Bio (freshman year) 710, Lit 750, Math I 750. All testing was complete by June prior to senior year.</p>

<p>Even with my d's experience, I can't answer your question. Is she pleased she retook - yes, because she lost nothing and gained something. Was it necessary - probably not. My one piece of advice would be to finish by the end of junior year, since it seems that your son can have that choice. Senior year is exceedingly hectic, and I can't tell you what a relief it was to d not to spend a Saturday testing and then waiting for test scores to come in.</p>

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<ul>
<li>Wanted to add that the decision to take the test again was solely my daughter's. In fact, she toyed with the idea of a third SAT just to see if she could get an 800 in M - just for the heck of it. And no, she isn't a perfectionist, although I know what this sound like. If your s has no interest in retaking, that's a different matter altogether.*</li>
</ul>

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<p>
[quote]
Senior year is exceedingly hectic, and I can't tell you what a relief it was to d not to spend a Saturday testing and then waiting for test scores to come in.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I think end of junior year can be extremely full of testing with SATIIs that need to be taken at the end of particular courses and APs. Granted that the subject matter will probably overlap a great deal, it can still amount to a lot of testing and hence testing fatigue. If not, then, it is indeed a good thing to have everything done at the end of the junior year. My own suggestion is that if SAT is not needed for scholarship, go with the ACT and 2-3 SATIIs and don't retake the SAT.</p>

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<p>Look at any school's common data set, the difference in admission rates between a 2250 and a 2350 is significant to say the least.</p>

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<p>Exactly! At this point you have to present the options to your kid and then let him/her make the decision. My D has very similar scores from sophomore year and I've told her several times she could be done with her SAT if she wants but she wants to take it one more time. I think she quite enjoys taking multiple choice tests as long as she doesn't have to prep for them! I figure if she's willing to take them, I'm willing to pay the fees and wake up early to drive her to the test center on a Saturday morning.</p>

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<p>^^^ My d felt the same way about the SAT retake; no prep and - yeah, time spent testing on a Saturday morning, but so ...</p>

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<p>"I look at the shockingly low admissions rates at the most selective schools (naturally) and wonder again whether that last 20 or 50 or 100 points on a standardized test might actually make a difference."
Here's my thoughts: 2 years ago, Son had very similar SAT scores, minus the ACT, which he did not take. NMSF too. He took the SAT in Jan of his Jr year, did very well, and took 4 SAT II tests by June of his Jr year[ 750+ on all]. He wanted to see if he could raise his Math SAT score, so retook the SAT in Oct of his SR year and hit 790, as well as raised his writing score to 750. He felt that taking the test 1 more time was probably worth it.[ who knows though?] His super scored total was 2340. Applied to 15 colleges, [ was not interested in HYP], was accepted at 14 colleges including 2 Ivy's. Also accepted at Wash U, Chicago, Carleton, Pomona, and decided to matriculate at USC as a Trustee scholar.</p>

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<p>There are some gaps that are psychologically significant and others that are not.
When S1 got a 680 on one SATII, his GC encouraged him to try to bring it up over 700; even though there is statistical difference between a 680 and a 720, the GC thought going over the 700 threshold was important. S1 retook and brought his score up into the low 700s. He got into some top schools. S2 got a 750 on one test and decided not to try to bring up his score.
It looks like the OP's son scored high on the ACT so there should be no need to retake the SAT unless it is for scholarship purposes or unless he wants to do so because he has time to kill.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Look at any school's common data set, the difference in admission rates between a 2250 and a 2350 is significant to say the least

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<p>yeah, but the thing we don't know is whether that is causal or correlational. i would hazard a guess that the innate intelligence or strong work ethic that helped produce the 2350 probably improved other parts of the child's application, which were more likely the deciding factors.</p>

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<p>We don't actually know anything from the common data sets. We don't know the score ranges of the pool of applicants, and we don't know the score ranges of the students admitted. All we know are the (very broad) score ranges of the students who actually enroll. With the possible exception of Harvard and Yale, the enrolled-student profile is likely to differ significantly from the admitted-student profile. And we have absolutely no way to assess the difference between a 720 and a 760 on one test component, or even between a 680 and a 720.</p>

<p>And on top of that, of course mazatl is right.</p>

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<p>OP- if your child has only taken the SAT one time, why not sit for it again? Of course provided the SAT IIs are out of the way. I do not suggest taking it senior year though. Just be done by the end of Junior year. Both my sons finished all testing by the end of junior year, with May or June used for the SAT IIs. Each took the SAT I twice, once in 10th and once in 11th. Mid 2200s is great but, as another poster said, we do not know the subscores and perhaps he could significantly improve one subscore. And, I 'm sorry, but I do not get the idea that a kid would rather do something else on a Saturday when it is only one Saturday as an investment in the future. Big deal. I think you do not want to look back on March 31 with regret. This is where parental advice makes a big impact. Then it is up to the kid if he wants to apply himself and try to up his scores.<br>
Having gone through this process with one son and toward the end of it with the second, where their heads are at in December of junior year can be very far from where they are at in December of senior year when it will be too late to test again and they are in a rush to finish an application to a school that they just realized they would like to attend. My mantra is that you want the kids to have choices come the spring and all the testing and applications are intended to provide them with those choices.</p>