<p>Thought I'd share an experience our DS just had -- he is a Jr. engineering major at a small eastern LAC with a respected engineering program. DS is in the midst of applying for internships and was recently flown in for an interview with a Fortune 500 company. Two days after the interview he received a call from a Project Manager with a verbal offer. DS responded that he didn't expect a call so soon and would like 2 or 3 days to think about it (check with his advisor, etc.). The caller said she'd like to know by the end of the week (4 days distant). After 3 days DS called several times and left VMs saying he was really interested please call so they could finalize things. Called several times the next day (Friday) and left the same message. On the following Monday he received an email (no return call) saying someone else was subsequently offered the internship and accepted. DS spoke to his Dep't Chair and then called the PM for an explanation that turned out to be something like, "The telephone call was just a verbal offer, a formal written offer would have come if you had accepted the position, I needed to fill it so I kept looking even though you asked for a few days to make a decision [and I agreed to the request]." Anyone have a similar experience, just wondering how common this situation is. I'm happy that DS handled the situation very professionally -- can't say the same for the PM.</p>
<p>I would be glad that my DS will not be working for that PM.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, lack of civility is a hallmark of job hunting/job filling these days, at least in my field (publishing). I give your son credit for not just accepting the spot and then reneging later if something else came up.</p>
<p>If the PM said s/he would hold the position until the end of the week and wait for your son's decision, then the PM behaved unethically. If the PM did not agree to hold the position for your son, then the PM probably figured someone who applied for the position should know they want the position and be able to agree verbally. Your son's delaying his response may have suggested to the PM that your son wasn't serious and was perhaps hoping for a better offer in the interim, so the PM opted to find someone for whom the job was a clear first choice. Like college admissions, internships are highly competitive and an applicant has to know what he wants and how to make the employer feel like their offer is a dream come true and greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>Sometimes these interview dynamics are the tip of the iceberg, indicating what life will be like there (two-faced, confusing messages), so I share ADad's immediate response.</p>
<p>OTOH, the experience might leave your S a bit puzzled or frustrated, wondering what he did "wrong," to not repeat next time. I found with my kids, always raised to be honest-to-a-fault, they shared too much of their own thought processes at the wrong moment. Ask him if he said with great enthusiasm, "I'm so pleased to hear this news! I'll be back to you within a few days!" If it were said heartily, rather than hesitantly, the PM might not have wondered whether he would end up saying "no" in a few days. A more thoughtful person (in the PM) would have/should have respected his need to talk to the advisor, so it does show the PM as shallow. In that way, best not to go work under him. The thing for your S to work on is his tone of voice. Say "yes" whenever possible, and before you mention your caveats. Stay in the driver's seat while on the search process, which is easy to say but hard to do. Also reassure your S he'll get better at handling these junctures with each experience. In the end, I've found, if they want you they'll forgive everything but if they're ambivalent or feel "anyone" could do the job, they'll
consider any hesitation or hiccup reason to keep looking. They get turned down (after waiting their 3 days) by others..so react to your S from their side of the experience of being disappointed by candidates. Corporate culture is not full of fair, timely processes the way academic decision-making is set up, with clear deadlines for decisions and so on. It's a rough adjustment from university to corporations, I hear (no first-hand experience).</p>
<p>"A more thoughtful person (in the PM) would have/should have respected his need to talk to the advisor, so it does show the PM as shallow."</p>
<p>I suspect employers assume adults applying for an internship have already checked with all of the people they need to before applying. I think employers perceive themselves as competing for the "best" employees, and a delay may have suggested to an employer that the potential employee lacked some decision making abilities or confidence the employer seeks in its employees. I think the employer is silly but I bet his/her behavior is commonplace.</p>
<p>I agree that the Manager was not very professional or fair. If he did agree to 4 days, he should not have been making offers to others. </p>
<p>But then again, if your S sounded hesitant rather than excited, in his response, that could have gotten the wheels turning. There are many ways to ask for more time.</p>
<p>I would expect most companies to email a Congratulatory note, praising the candidate, and requesting a response within a set tme period. (often 1-2 weeks). The phonecall probably caught your son off-guard.</p>
<p>Very poor form to offer the job to one person, agree to wait, and then give it to someone else. In my former life as a manager, I might possibly have continued to look, but would have made it clear to anyone I spoke to that a job offer had been extended and I was talking to others only as a backup plan. TO do otherwise is simply dishonest.</p>
<p>I would not want to work for that person.</p>
<p>It was your son's first experience with this and it looks like it was a learning experience even without getting the job! I wonder how hesitant/enthusiastic your son sounded when the PM called - I'm sure he was a little "off his game" because he didn't expect to hear so quickly. I'm a little confused - wouldn't he have spoken to his advisor BEFORE flying off somewhere for an interview? Or did he just take the interview to get the experience, and decide if the position was a good fit for him afterwards?</p>
<p>I agree that the PM was less than fully-honest, and perhaps it is best that he's not going to work there. But again the PM may have interpreted his luke-warm response as a lack of interest in the position.</p>
<p>BTW... Lafparent....as my screenname implies I'm pretty sure I know which eastern LAC with a strong engineering program your son is attending! I hope he's as happy there as my son is. Good to hear they're attracting strong internships for their students!</p>
<p>Based on what you've told us it doesn't sound like student did anything wrong, but could have handled it better. DS did not handle things professionally, but actually amateurishly. First, as others have pointed out, if he went for an interview he should have had his ducks in a row first relating to terms and conditions he would/would not accept. Was DS surprised an interview led to a job offer? Isn't that what job interviews are all about? Certainly it is clear now that student should have been more prepared. Second, if the interviewer said she'd like to know by the end of the week, I feel that implies she'll wait for a response before taking other action, but certainly is no guarantee, since the interviewer didn't add "I'll wait for your answer". If a person desires more time to make a decision, the person needs to specifically ask if the potential employer will allow x amount of time before making their decision. Even then, an employer may or may not honor his word.
Did the employer break laws? I doubt it. Break his(her) word? Not exactly.
Fully honest? No way. Certainly the potential employer could have said "take the time you need, but we will still be looking".
I think the real key is the exact wording the interviewer used, and not having been there myself it is difficult to evaluate. While DS might not have been as prepared as should have been, that imo does not excuse interviewers' vague implication.
As I've told my son not all college learning occurs in the classroom, and your DS is learning about "loopholes", deadlines, preparedness. DS is a young person, trusting and learning, and will be that much smarter and better next time.</p>
<p>Interesting, in all of my years working, a verbal offer is just as good as a paper offer. Nobody has rescinded any verbal offer from me yet. Eventhough, I have never given a notice to my employer until I received the paper offer but I thought a verbal offer is binding, is it not?</p>
<p>The manager acted unethically. If they told the recruit they had 4 days to respond then they should have allowed the 4 days. Worst case, if two days later they determined they needed to make an immediate decision, they should have contacted your S and told him they needed an immediate answer. From your description it sounds like they just went to the next one on the list right away after your S didn't immediately accept. For something like an summer internship position (if that's what it is) they should have allowed more than 4 days for the decision anyway. </p>
<p>Your S is probably lucky to not be reporting to this individual and this frees your S to land an internship with a more ethical manager.</p>
<p>I don't agree with those who suggested that your S ought to have known going into the interview that he would take the job if offered. In my managerial days, I hired between 20 and 30 people for professional jobs (and interviewed many more to make those hires!). And of course I've interviewed for a number of jobs myself. An interview is a two-way street. Both participants are gathering information that will enable them to make a decision. I would completely understand if someone in your S's position needed to discuss the internship with his advisor. This person sounds as if what they were looking for is simply a warm body. When you add that to the unethical behavior, I'd say he's well out of it.</p>
<p>I think your son is lucky he didn't accept the job. Regardless of whether or not he "should" have been ready to accept or reject the offer immediately, he did not. He requested a few days to think about it. The PM should have been honest and told him that the job could not be "held" for him. S would have then been able to decide if he was comfortable giving a quick answer ... or if he would rather take a chance on losing it instead of answering before he felt ready to do so. The PM acted in an unprofessional manner. I have worked for unprofessional bosses, and it's not fun. Encourage your S to learn from this experience.</p>
<p>I have an opposite story. Once my son sent an internship inquirey letter to a fairly large company and received a letter containing the details of his employment, but he never even had a phone interview!</p>
<p>a verbal offer, if not accepted, is not the same as a paper offer...she offered, he said he had to think about, she said, okay..but did NOT say she would hold the job.... and the student waited 3 days to return the call...doesn't sound that interested to me.....wouldn't a verbal offer be "binding" if it is accepted? once you go, let me think, I would say that there is no contract...which needs both to agree....IF the student had said yes, THEN the offer would be binding....</p>
<p>That makes sense citygirlsmom, but my son was offered a job by phone after an application and interview. He asked if he could have a day or two to make a decision and was granted this request. When he called back later that day or the next day, he got the job. This was followed by a paper contract. Even adults who are offered a job ususally have some time to consider the personal and financial aspects of new position.</p>
<p>It sounds like a huge miscommunication. The student asked for 2-3 days, and called on day 4 (Thurs) and day 5 (Fri). Even though he was given until the end of the week, I wonder if he was even calling the right person. Selections are made by engineers, but formal offers are handled by Human Resources. I think it is unlikely that nobody at a big Fortune500 company would answer the phone for two days. Somebody in HR might have told the hiring engineer that no response was received and to choose somebody else. Who knows, in a big company, the person who offered until the end of the week to decide may have been sick or taken a long weekend and not documented the conversation, so the next HR person did not know. In the future it would be best to have accurate email and phone contact information for both the engineering manager and the HR department. It was a hard learning experience...so sorry for your son.</p>
<p>How about this one: A verbal offer is given and accepted, but after a month still no start date is forthcoming. Or this one: an interview is arranged, interviewee arrives on time and is kept waiting for hours, never to be granted an audience. Later he discovers that the job had already been filled but the major company's manager was so inconsiderate he could not be bothered to call down to the lobby and let the candidate know. Or this one: Offer is accepted, a start date is agreed on, an hour before new employee is to meet coworker to car pool to the airport the company's client (same major company mentioned above) decides that the company should not employ the new employee and vetoes everything. Or this one: employee is hired and upon arrival he is told that his replacement has not left and apparently has not been told he is to be replaced. In the meantime, employee must share an office all week with the one he is replacing but will not have a desk/computer/phone of his own. At the end of the week he is fired for being unproductive, while replaced person apparently still had not been told he was let go. I could go on, but the point is...Business manners are simply atrocious, that's all there is to it.</p>
<p>My S has just had an odd experience with an internship interview too. This internship was to begin in mid-March. First, after submitting an application, S was interviewed over the phone by 3 different people, including the CEO of the company. Then, one of the interviewers traveled to his college, met with him personally there, and asked the same questions all over again. After each of these 4 encounters, he was told they would get back to him in a few days/by the end of the week. Weeks later, he still has gotten no response despite S contacting them. </p>
<p>What's strange is that this is neither a high-paying nor permanent position--it's for 3 months. Shouldn't be that complicated a decision, no? Either they liked him or they didn't. Why spend that much time and effort with interviews and visits, only to not respond at all?</p>
<p>Meanwhile, S accepted an internship with a company who offered him the job after one phone interview.</p>
<p>^^^^Methinks there is some corporate dysfunction/paranoia going on. After hearing something like that, you wonder how any business at all gets accomplished!</p>