<p>here is the floor map of the first floor at brown, however you can't make out the size of the room.</p>
<p>relax, you will still be able to order a futon on line once you get to school and actually see the layout of the room as the stores won't be selling out. You never know you may be able to purchase one from a student at school.</p>
<p>yea thanks that sounds great.. but i kinda want my parents to help me out with everything and have everything set up.. i am thinking the futon has to fit.. and if not we can always bunk the beds.. i saw the floor map before but i wanted someone that actually lived in brown to tell me more about the doubles.</p>
<p>
[quote]
and if not we can always bunk the beds.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are not allowed to loft your beds. ORL (office of residential life) will fine you something like $300</p>
<p>I think Dartmouth is a great school and offers a great education. There are things about it that could be improved - mainly targeting diversity and social life on campus. Dartmouth is dominated by greek life and the white upper-middle class. It seems like they are making efforts to change this but campus culture is very hard to change. I believe statisically, it is the least ethnically diverse of all the ivies.</p>
<p>Haha... a topic for this board's resident "Dartmouth-hater" :P (and recently graduated, I must mention) Funny thing though... I didn't really mind the things the other people mentioned. The food isn't that bad, and I wouldn't call the distributive req's "at one end of the spectrum" by any means. But here's what got my goat:</p>
<p>-Too cold
-Nowhere to go when you need to be anonymous, even for a fleeting moment
-You need a car to get anywhere, and it gets old driving 2+ hours each time you want to go to a city
-The vast majority of the student body, really, is the same (attitude-wise more than race-wise)
-Frats dominate the social scene, no matter what people try to tell you otherwise
-The financial aid director is insane
-Quarter system doesn't work
-Overall, I felt classes emphasize more busywork than intellectual work
-No real Starbucks (though that became somewhat better last year when B&N bought out the bookstore and put a B&N cafe serving Starbucks Coffee in)</p>
<p>And, of course, my most hated part about Dartmouth is what I like to call "The Dartmouth Rule," which the vast majority of students seemed to follow. It's an unwritten rule which goes as follows: after your first year, if you don't know someone you're not allowed to meet them.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I believe statisically, it is the least ethnically diverse of all the ivies.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Bummer,, it has to be hard when one choses a screen name and that name sometimes lets them down or they are out of sync with the screen name. Dartmouth is amongst the *** most ethnically diverse*** of all the ivies.</p>
<p>Dartmouth</p>
<p>Dartmouth Common Data set</p>
<p>Dartmouth class of 2008 1081 students </p>
<p>Black, non-Hispanic 79 (7.3%)
American Indian or Alaska Native 38 (3.5%)
Asian or Pacific Islander 147 (13.5%)
Hispanic 72 (6.6%)</p>
<p>31% minorities class of 08 total minorities 30% </p>
<p>Cornell</p>
<p>Cornell Common Data set</p>
<p>Class of 2008 3054 students</p>
<p>Black, non-Hispanic 151 (4.94%)
American Indian or Alaska Native 17 (0.55%)
Asian or Pacific Islander 523 (17.12%)
Hispanic 173 (5.66%)</p>
<p>**total minorities 28.29% **</p>
<p>*Princeton *</p>
<p>Princeton class of 2008 total 1176 students</p>
<p>Black, non-Hispanic 86 (7.31%)
American Indian or Alaska Native 11 (0.93%)
Asian or Pacific Islander 150 (12.75%)
Hispanic 89 (7.56%)</p>
<p>**total minorities 28.57% **</p>
<p>*Penn *</p>
<p><a href="http://www.upenn.edu/about/facts.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.upenn.edu/about/facts.php</a></p>
<p>Diversity
About 41.4 percent of those accepted for admission to the Class of 2008 are Black, Hispanic, Asian, or Native American. Women comprise 50.8 percent of all students currently enrolled. however, you do not know exactly how these numbers break out because the school does not supply them</p>
<p>Columbia</p>
<p>University overall 37.4% minorities</p>
<p>College 35.4</p>
<p>Engineering 51.52</p>
<p>If you subtract students that are listed as other (and just use students that identify as being black, native american hispanic and asian) the percentages are as follows</p>
<p>University overall 32.45% minorities</p>
<p>College 30.88%</p>
<p>Engineering 46.06%</p>
<p>*Brown *</p>
<p>African American 372 (6.5%)
Asian 773 (13.54)
hispanic 381 (6.6%)
native American 30 (0.52%)</p>
<p>total undergrad 5707
total minorities 27.26%</p>
<p>*Harvard *</p>
<p>Total undergrads 6562</p>
<p>Asians 1141 (17.38%)
Blacks 449 (6.8%)
Hispanics 512 (7.8%)
native Americans 58 (0.88%)</p>
<p>**Total Minorities 32.91 % **</p>
<p>Go to the campus and tell me DArtmouth more diverse than Brown. It's not. Minorities typically do better at Brown/Penn academically.</p>
<p>Numbers don't mean anything if can't see diverse students around campus. Additionaly, asian students are typically over-represented in the ivies so you can't count them as minorities.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Additionaly, asian students are typically over-represented in the ivies so you can't count them as minorities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Asians are still minorities at the Ivies they are just not underrepresented Minorities (URMs)</p>
<p>Black graduation rate at Penn is 83%</p>
<p>According to the Journal on Blacks in Higher Education:</p>
<p>Nearly 19 out of every 20 black students who enter the highly competitive academic environment of Harvard, Princeton, Haverford, and Amherst go on to earn their diplomas. Other academically demanding colleges do very well, although not as well as these four. </p>
<p>Sixteen other highly competitive colleges and universities turn in black student graduation rates of 85 percent or more. They are Wellesley College, Williams College,** Brown University,* Davidson College, Colgate University, Duke University, Northwestern University, Swarthmore College, Wesleyan University, Yale University, Georgetown University, Stanford University, Washington University, *Dartmouth College,** Columbia University, and the University of Virginia</p>
<p>Considering the fact that Brown has 5707 undergraduates as compared to 3998 undergraduates at Dartmouth, of course if you go to Brown and "count heads" you are going to "see" more minorities but you are also going to "see" 1709" additional people. But looking at the populations as a whole Dartmouth is *still*more ethicnally diverse.</p>
<p>Brown </p>
<p>African American 372 (6.5%)
Asian 773 (13.54)
hispanic 381 (6.6%)
native American 30 (0.52%)</p>
<p>Dartmouth</p>
<p>African Americans 274 (6.8)
native Americans 140 (3.5%)
Asians 539 (13.48%)
Hispanics 258 (6.4%)</p>
<p>woah, is there really tht 'dartmouth rule'?? does tht mean tht u basically have to stick wit the ppl u meet n noe in the first year????!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?</p>
<p>NO. dcd talks about this as an unwritten rule that apparently reflects his/her personal observation. I believe a lot of current students will be able to tell you they had/have a very different experience.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has a hard time attracting non-white students - more so than other colleges of similar levels. For the class of 2008, they only had 437 African Americans apply for admission. </p>
<p>This is primarily because there are poor race relations at Dartmouth. See this article written in May 2005:</p>
<p>"Racism Persists at Dartmouth"</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>"A Legacy of Racism, Sexism"</p>
<p>I'm not saying Dartmouth is a poor school, it clearly is top of the class - it just has a long way to go with respect to campus issues.</p>
<p>WealthofInformation - </p>
<p>I am not sure what your direct experience of Dartmouth was, but obviously you did not get a great sense of fit for your child (you? - I am not sure if you are a parent or a student). Brown seems to have felt more right. I am not sure if you visited Penn, but your research, at least leads you to feel it also a better fit. Neither is composed of a more diverse student body.</p>
<p>That is good that you or your child could get a clear sense that one environment was more right than another, as the ultimate choice its alot about good fit. This is something I think, from other of your threads, that you are concerned with - finding those great schools which are not necessarily at very pinnacle of what US News decrees are the top schools. But I think that when people share their take of different schools with others, they have to take care not to state as fact that which is impression. To state emphatically "there are poor race relations at Dartmouth" is to express as a condemning fact that which is an opinion not necessarily shared universally by students - including minority students.</p>
<p>Racism is ugly. The second of the two articles you give link to, an opinion letter to the editor of the student paper in 2001, demonstrates the distress of that. The author of this opinion decried that racisim seemed an institutionally condoned policy of Dartmouth, and not just the ugly attitude of some of its students. It is no less ugly, whatever the source, but I don't see that it is institionally condoned especially in light of the first article you link to from May, 2004. Nor would I conclude that it is more rampant at Dartmouth. Search the recent archives of the Brown Review or the Penn Daily Pennsylvanian and you really and easily will find similar distressing letters to the editors. Search as many student-run papers as are available online, Ohio University, whatever, and you will find this kind of concern voiced in opinion letters all over campuses nation-wide. It is an issue that needs to be voiced and addressed. It is not exclusive to certain colleges. Nor is it representative of entire student bodies or administrations.</p>
<p>The first article you linked to probably is not what you meant to link to as it does not support your contention at all. This article talks about the difficulties of attracting to Dartmouth students from among a relatively small pool of minority applicants who place Brown, Dartmouth, Penn, Harvards Yale, Princeton, Amherst, Swarthmore, etc. on their list of choices. This article deals with the fact that, as a result, in a concerted effort to become increasingly more diverse, Dartmouth admits minority applicants at higher rates than non-minority students to Dartmouth. This has nothing to do with racism.</p>
<p>You state that this article demonstrates that Dartmouth has a hard time attracting non-white students - "more so than other colleges of similar level" This article does not state that - it says says it has a hard time attracting non-white students - more so than white students, and that it competes with other similar level colleges for the same students.</p>
<p>The figures that Sybbie has given (take a look at the Common Data Sets of various colleges if you want to get a relative sense for yourself), indicate the level of diversity Dartmouth has attained to date. It has a way to go before the student body is truly reflective of the nation's population. As do all ivies including Brown and Penn. As do most private colleges in the US. The first article gives you an idea of Dartmouth's committment to continue to build an increasingly diverse student body. This is common to all ivies.</p>
<p>I agree with a lot you said first of all. :) It's all about fit - I'm the first to admit that.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, my experience at Dartmouth is first-hand as well as straight from the horses mouthes, sadly. Dartmouth does attract fewer URMs into their applicant pool primarily becuase there is a small population there in the first place - self-fulfilling prophecy I suppose (not counting Native Americans which they do abnormally well with). </p>
<p>In this case - raw numbers do tell a story - whereas people might argue that %age is more important. For example, at Penn, there are just sheer amounts of URMs there - creating a large campus community - a great one in fact - the same cannot really be said for Dartmouth. Clearly Penn has way more students (20,000 including grad students) but the atmosphere created by the volume of diverse students - the raw numbers, not percentage - in this case is what makes the difference in attracting applicants.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In this case - raw numbers do tell a story - whereas people might argue that %age is more important....
the raw numbers, not percentage - in this case is what makes the difference in attracting applicants.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It sounds as if you are back peddling just a little. How do make comparisons between 2 schools when one has a student body that is 4 times as large as the other? Penn has 10,047 (almost 2.5 times as many undergrads as Dartmouth) and 9218 graduate students.</p>
<p>The College at Penn (School of Arts and Sciences), 6,478
School of Engineering and Applied Science, 1,494
School of Nursing, 492
The Wharton School, 1,784 </p>
<p>
[quote]
Nonetheless, my experience at Dartmouth is first-hand as well as straight from the horses mouthes, sadly.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Were you a student at Dartmouth or a parent of a student who attended Dartmouth or were you just there for a visit? I beleive that you are operating from a very limited frame of reference for one who choses to paint using such broad strokes.</p>
<p>I can tell you first hand as a tuition paying parent of a black student who currently attends Dartmouth , that it is preety much a self selecting crowd that chooses Dartmouth whether or not you are a minority. And from my first hand experience the URMs attending are really quite happy to be there.</p>
<p>For my D, she has lived in a big city her entire life and finds Dartmouth, which was her first choice so there was no "settling", a refreshing change of pace and is absolutely loving her time there. As a parent I am quite content that she is in an environment that supports her and is supportive of her as a person of color. </p>
<p>She is very active in the AAm, student assembly, the tucker foundation, and Dartmouth alliance student of color. As my only child, she gets a great deal of support from her big brother and a big sister on campus, the BADA-black alumni at Dartmouth Association, quite a few who are the parents of her friends make a very concerted effort to reach out and network with students on campus. She has friends who perform in and supports, the gospel choir, sheba, gumboot dancers, ujima. Shes an undergrad advisor for the sophmore class and has hosted a number of prospective students (black, white, hispanic and asian) She has always been comfortable in her own skin and makes a has a global group of friends.</p>
<p>Is Hanover for everyone? Absolutely not, and you have demonstrated that that hanover is not for you as you seem to be more comfortable in a larger environment and there is nothing wrong with that. Daughter was accepted to every school she applied to so she had plenty of choices but stuck with her first choice- Dartmouth. </p>
<p>She has spent a considerable amount of time at most of the ivy campuses and quickly rattled off reasons why she did not want to attend school there. I have been going to the Penn relays for over 30 years, she has cousins that attend Penn, but said she would not attend on a bet as she is Penned out. I went to Cornell, and she wasn't even remotely interested in going up to Ithaca. Her aunt is a Columbia graduate (grad & undergrad) her uncle is a Princeton grad and currently teaches there and she just shreiked no,no as she wasn't remotely interested. She got letters from all of them encouraging her to come and apply but she felt they were not good fits -for her. Does it mean that anything is wrong with these schools, no they were not just the place for her and there is nothing wrong with that either.</p>
<p>Having actually attended Dartmouth, I can attest to the diversity. The school feels diverse, just go to Thayer dining hall or walk around a dorm. It feels just as diverse as most of the other Ivies. I am sorry numbers don't lie. Dartmouth has changed considerably over the years, it isn't the place it was in 1995 at all, its even changed in the past five years. The class of 2002 was 22% minority, now there isnt a year there without 30%+. The administration could not be more friendly and welcoming to minorities, and there is plenty of minority focused infrastructure. </p>
<p>Wealth does have a point - a small one. Minorities at Dartmouth don't stick together as strongly as they do at other schools, rather they are interdispersed into the population. Personally, I didn't mind this at all, but I could see how some minorities might desire that kind of atmosphere. A friend of mine was pretty frustrated at the lack of cohesiveness within the Dartmouth Indian community. We all knew each other and I am friends with many of them, but we didnt all hang out as a group regularly.</p>
<p>Something many people might see as a plus. When I visited Duke and sat in the freshman dining hall, I was shocked: I saw two tables that were mixed. Every other table was all black, all white, all asian,etc. Definitely a turn-off to me. I saw so much more integration at Dartmouth, and it seemed much healthier.</p>
<p>Dear Slipper1234, Can I ask why you transferred from Columbia to Dartmouth. My daughter is strongly considering both of these schools (I know that they are very different from one another) and I would love to know your experiece at Columbial, what motivated you to transfer to DC, and if you are glad that you did. Thanks. Nanci</p>
<p>I probably havent made a better decision in my life. That said, Columbia is an awesome school and academically great, and there are many things to like. A particular type of student - someone more individualistic (a loner type) or someone very into a certain cultural group (since its a large university minorities tend to hang out together) might really prefer Columbia. Columbia is relatively politically correct, the jocks get more flack than the LGBTA (gay lesbian org). </p>
<p>Dartmouth wasn't exactly an athletically focused school either, but the students are more "normal." Some might find this a little intimidating, although the truth is that there are plenty of types of students and many niches. An extroverted "happy, go-lucky" person is going to like Dartmouth more. </p>
<p>The big difference for me in the end was community. Dartmouth felt like a family whereas Columbia felt institutional. I loved the weekdays at Columbia, but during the weekends the campus was dead. Also, the bond between students is so much stronger at Dartmouth. Even the administration seems incredibly helpful. The way people are able to get attention to do research and form relationships with professors is incredible. People love to love Dartmouth - I just can't say the same about Columbia. Dartmouth is casual and free spirited, Columbia is more intense and lonely (I think a function of the quiet weekends). I think Columbia is perfect for grad school, but as an undergrad school I think the opportunities and attention at at dartmouth are far superior. Dartmouth has so many special things like Sophomore summer, study abroad, amazingly fun big weekends - that all add to its uniqueness. </p>
<p>If you like both check out Brown as well, which sits halfway between these two in many ways.</p>
