AP exams to oxford

Applying to College
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Hi.

I’m a rising senior and I’m trying to get into Oxford PPE. I’ve got a 1550 on my SAT (will probably take again) and have 3 5s right now, Calculus BC, Microeconomics, and Macroeconomics. I took 5 AP exams this year, those being Literature, Language, Latin, US History, and Physics C Mechanics. I flunked physics badly, thinking it will be a 1 or 2. But I could maybe get another one or two fives out of these other APs. My TSA results range from 76.5 to 95, which is between 40/50 to 45/50. What do you think are my chances of getting in, assuming I do well on the interview?

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Paging @Twoin18 and @LostInTheShuffle.

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You should be getting mostly 5s. One slip up is acceptable, but you’d better get 5 in at least 3 of the others. Do not under any circumstances retake the SAT, they hate multiple attempts (which you have to disclose) and your score is good enough already to not be disqualifying.

But you have it backwards, your scores are about qualifying for interview. Then the interview is all important and the scores are barely used (at best a tie breaker), with the TSA more important than APs. You can look up the TSA scores needed to get an interview.

For reference my S18 had 4.0, 1540 SAT, 6 APs when applying (5 5s and 1 3 from sophomore year) plus four more 5s predicted. He never found out his TSA score but did get an interview, though he didn’t get an offer.

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So Oxford’s website is pretty clear about all this.

The undergraduate PPE course is an “AAA” course, which is referring to the required scores on A-Levels:

No subject is listed as Essential, but Maths is Recommended, and History is Helpful.

OK, then for US applicants, they define what that means for AAA courses. In relevant part:

For courses requiring AAA:

Either Four APs at grade 5 (including any subjects required for the course you are applying to)

OR

Three APs at grade 5 (including any subjects required for the course you are applying to) plus a score of 31 or above in the ACT or 1460 or above (out of 1600) in the SAT. We do not require the optional essay for either the ACT or the SAT.

Please note that Calculus AB and Calculus BC cannot be counted as two separate subjects for the purposes of meeting your offer, whether taken as separate tests or by receiving the AB sub-score when taking Calculus BC.

If you are applying for a course that requires Mathematics you should take Calculus BC if you are able to do so. However, courses will accept Calculus AB if you are unable to take Calculus BC.

OK, so you are looking pretty good. You have the basic combination of SAT and 3 AP 5s you need, and likely also could use the 4 AP 5s route if you are right about your recent exams. You have the highest Math AP 5, which is Recommended. If you got a 5 in US History that might be good to be one of your APs, but since History is only Helpful I would not be concerned.

However, Oxford goes on to explain they will require you to submit all of your scores. They explicitly state they require this so that the tutors in your course (who will be choosing whether or not to interview you) get a “complete picture of a candidate’s academic record.”

Personally, I would be skeptical that anyone can truly tell you whether your low Physics score will be a problem for the PPE tutors at Oxford. I personally suspect that is an individual thing, as plausibly some could see it as irrelevant, but some could also wonder if that means your math skills, or high-pressure test skills generally, are not quite suitable for Oxford.

But as a final thought, I assume you know you can apply to a specific college at Oxford, or apply without a preference, but either way the PPE tutors at any college could decide to offer you an interview even if your first choice college does not. So, you just need SOME PPE tutors at SOME college to think you are worth interviewing.

So I would personally say it is worth a shot notwithstanding how individual tutors might react to the Physics score. Because you at least meet their stated requirements for PPE, which means they certainly could give you an interview.

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Do you think getting 4s on some of the AP exams I took this year would be really bad for my application? I’m not sure I pulled off 3 5s this year

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How do you think getting 4s as opposed to 5s would affect me?

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Just replying to note that some US applicants may be in an awkward situation where the best SAT strategy for Oxford is not the best strategy for their US colleges. And no one can actually bank on Oxford since as you point out, the tutors will use the interview to decide who actually gets admitted to their course.

However, I am not sure that is really a problem for the OP, since I am not sure retaking a 1550 is actually necessary in the US anyway. To my knowledge, I think anywhere a PPE-type student would be looking in the US, that SAT score should be at or above their median, which is quite good in a test-optional world.

Like, Yale has a great Ethics, Politics, and Economic program (and residential colleges designed to look just like Oxford!). In their latest Common Data Set, Yale reports only 59% of admits submitted test scores, and out of that group, the 50th percentile SAT composite was 1540.

And there is ample evidence that once you are at that level, it simply doesn’t make a difference to colleges like Yale if you get an even higher score. Rather, that will be good enough to support you getting past Yale’s academic screen for unhooked applicants (assuming your grades/transcript are also really good), and then whether or not you actually get admitted will depend on other factors.

So this is a long-winded way of saying–yeah, why retake that? Oxford doesn’t want you to, colleges like Yale won’t care, so what is the point?

I guess the last thing some people worry about is certain merit scholarships. Even then, my understanding is the sort of standard requirement for the top merit scholarships at the most selective colleges which offer them is applicants be in the top 1% of the overall college applicant pool.

As it happens, a 1550 gets you into the top 1%. So again, at that level, I am not sure there is really anything more to be gained.

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It would definitely put you at a disadvantage. APs are seen as easy (compared to British A levels). You will need a better TSA score to overcome this and qualify for an interview.

You also need to think carefully about the reference. This has to be a UK specific one, including forecasts of 5s in next year’s APs. It also needs to say words equivalent to “this is the best student I’ve taught in the last 5 years”: remember that Oxford is only accepting about 1 student per US state each year.

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Thanks for the reply. When you say I should perform well in the TSA, what would that look like? How many questions should I be aiming to get correct?

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A score in the 80s would be seen as strong, 75 and above is good:

If you fall short on the AP scores then aim for 80 to guarantee an interview. But the odds are still only about 50/50 at that point

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So to be blunt, I think Oxford is specifically telling you it wants to see your scores on all your APs because its tutors in a given course might care how US applicants do on their non-required AP tests. For many UK universities, 4s might still count as sufficiently good scores, but Oxford (and Cambridge) specifically make it clear they are generally looking for 5s.

And I think in a way, they are trying to save US applicants from themselves. The UK system, and most international systems, are all about training their students for single, high-pressure tests. The people who emerge from those systems well-qualified for Oxford have been the best at that in the last stage, and are ready to do that all again at Oxford–and even some of those people will get disappointing results on those tests.

As a US student, you are likely coming out of a very different system. And if you are not as well-prepared, and not generally as well-suited, for such a system, then maybe going to Oxford is not the best idea for you.

But I don’t mean to say you definitely should not apply if you get some 4s and a 2 in Physics. I’d more suggest that you put your trust in the PPE tutors at Oxford to have the best idea of what sorts of US applicants will do well in their course, and what sorts might struggle.

And if they look at all your AP tests together and think you might not do great at Oxford–from a greater perspective, that could be a very good thing for you. And of course if they think it is all fine and you will do well there–that is good too.

But, you know, have a good Plan B and C, right? That is true in general since almost no one can know if they will be selected for admissions after an Oxford interview. But if you are applying with some non-5s, you might not get the interview at all, so definitely be prepared for what other exciting college opportunities you might be pursuing.

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College Board seems to let me cancel scores and make it so that the records are completely wiped from the college board systems. Could I do this and just submit the scores that I received a 5 on?

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Would just cancelling my score be a viable option as it completely wipes the score from my records?

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Oxford state that you must disclose all scores. Not reporting it, whether cancelled or not, is lying on your application. And Oxford expect you to take the test if you take an AP class, so how would you explain the lack of a score?

You need to deal with what you’ve got, not try and manipulate the system. The exams at Oxford are very challenging and your entire degree depends on them. You don’t get second chances if you have a bad day.

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The other poster already gave you the right answer from my perspective, but here is the exact quote from Oxford:

Score cancellation/withdrawal

We are aware that students taking APs can apply to College Board to have their scores cancelled or withdrawn. However, it is a requirement of the UCAS application process for students to declare all results, including any that have been cancelled or withdrawn, so that tutors are able to consider students’ full educational profile. Failure to declare all qualifications could result in Oxford withdrawing any offer made to you.

And again, I know it is tempting to try to wriggle your way into Oxford anyway. But I really think you should not be trying to prevent the PPE tutors at Oxford from considering your “full educational profile”, because I doubt your best interests would really be served by getting admitted to Oxford and then not doing well there.

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My D22 applied to Oxford with A levels so I am less familiar with applying with AP scores (but I am an American familiar with AP courses/exams). So take what I say with a grain of salt.

My sense is that Calc BC and Physics C Mechanics will be looked at together (or at least Physics C Mechanics will be considered) because A level math has a mechanics module. It might also be very helpful to do well in an AP subject with extensive essay writing (e.g., the PPE course page states that history is a “helpful” subject).

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My daughter applied and was accepted for PPE in Oxford starting 2018. She had the following APs:
Sophomore: AP Spanish Lit (5)
Junior: APUSH (5), AP Physics 1 (4), AP Music Theory (4)
Senior: Calc BC, English Lit, Bio, Econ Micro and Macro (all 5s)
ACT: 35
4.0 unweighted
Very good ECs for her chosen major (this counts when writing the personal statement and may be a topic of conversation during the interview)
TSA: don’t know, maybe 70-tish
She applied Open application and they matched her. I think this is a good strategy to maximize chances as they do want you to succeed.

As said above you need to disclose all scores. They care about APUSH and English Lit as there is a lot of essay writing. They also care about core subject APs as compared to APs that they consider secondary such as Music Theory and Latin. Science is a core subject.

TSA score is very important to be selected for an interview. Practice, practice, practice old exams under timed conditions. My D also read some books they recommend (and some the did not) and wrote about them in the PS.

Chances are difficult to estimate. There are so many factors, some of them subjective. In her year, there were 7 PPE students in her college and she was the only US student. You should plan on having solid US applications. She was also accepted to two Ivies and Stanford so she was a strong applicant overall. Good luck with your application! It’s worth a shot

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Why Oxford? Which other British universities are you considering?

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