AP vs IB vs Early College

@Gumbymom might know how the UCs handle this situation and whether passing an AP exam could replace taking the class if the student is already proficient in the language.

Yes, Japanese courses were available. Would you recommend taking Japanese lessons instead of AP tests for a language she already knows?

I’m going to defer to @Gumbymom who is our resident UC admissions expert. She will know what is and isn’t acceptable in terms of UC eligibility.

If you are in California, how does she plan to fulfill the high school foreign language graduation requirement? Will her school allow her to take an AP exam to place out of the class? If so, that may make a stronger case for you.

Not saying that the student needs to prove fluency in five languages.

However, lots of colleges expect foreign language course work in high school. If the student is already at AP level or higher in all of the languages offered, then taking foreign language in high school would be useless. In this case, AP 5 scores in those languages would show the colleges why the student did not take any of the available foreign languages in high school.

Concrete example: high school offers Spanish and French up to AP level (and no other languages). Student already knows Spanish and French at a level higher than AP level. Having AP 5 scores in Spanish and French would help explain why the student did not take any foreign language in high school.

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But would this replace a language requirement, such as the UCs have? Can you test out of the E requirement?

This makes sense. She can focus on other courses instead.

UC frosh admission requires high school year 2 of foreign language or equivalent proficiency, with high school year 3 recommended. No high school in California that I know of has year 3 as AP level (many have year 4 as AP level). AP 3 score in any one language can also be used to fulfill the admission requirement.

UCs vary in foreign language graduation requirements. Having at least one AP foreign language score can help in some cases. But note that foreign language departments at UCs and other colleges and universities often have their own placement procedures for students who have some knowledge of the language but no AP score.

There is no expectation to have multiple AP foreign language courses or scores, since that would consume too much schedule space for a typical high school student who did not learn additional languages at home like your student did.

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Subject requirement (A-G) | UC Admissions says that a 3 on an AP foreign language exam fulfills the E requirement for frosh admission to UCs.

Other colleges and universities may vary, although some do not list foreign language as a hard requirement (only “recommended”).

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Good to know! And sounds like it will make this student’s life a bit easier :slight_smile:

Understood. However, a class with a grade is preferable to an AP FL test. The student could be a native speaker and colleges want to see grades.

Just want the OP to understand that a graded class is usually preferred. I’ll move on now.

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For UC and CSU purposes, an AP 3 or higher in any foreign language exam will suffice.

For other colleges, she may want to take both Chinese and Spanish AP exams to “prove” that there are no foreign language courses of any use to her in high school. This is no guarantee that all other colleges that require foreign language for admission would accept that, but it would make the case better than just claiming that her skill in the languages is higher than what the school offers.

However, you and she may want to investigate whether the college/DE options available have high enough level Chinese and/or Spanish (or any other language she knows) for her to take appropriately advanced level courses. This may help with college foreign language admission requirements if they do not accept just an AP score.

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Another thing to consider is that I think a full IB Diploma will require taking at least a SL and HL level foreign language class.

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You don’t need 12 APs for an elite college and you needn’t go to an elite school for med school.

Many do but that’s because in part they were good test takers up front just like you’ll need to do well on the MCAT.

Your student should be challenged but not over strained and take all the core areas and forget self study.

You are not expected to take what is not offered.

My kids school had two years of language. It didn’t hurt with admissions.

Many will choose lower cost colleges in preparation for med school due to expense.

It sounds like you are with a high fallutin crowd but there are no absolutes.

You need rigor however that looks in what is offered to you to have the best chance at top schools. And btw there are many great schools and some may even prep your kid better than the so called elite.

Step back, take a breath. It sounds like too much pressure.

Your student will be fine with the current available offerings. There is no target #.

There are guides like this on line that may help you.

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@ucbalumnus had already answered the UC FL question about AP scores but the UC’s still like to course grades vs exam scores for the core a-g requirements.

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However, the issue seems to be whether there is an available foreign language course at a high enough level that taking it provides an educational benefit to the student and does not seem like grade grubbing.

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  • for UC’s and elite universities, level reached in A Foreign Language is what matters.
    AP = Level 4 or 5.
    In fact, colleges look down on students who take Elementary and Intermediate level classes in languages they know well or speak fluenly.
    If a class appropriate for her level in any language is offered at the HS or at a nearby CC she should try to take it but she should NOT take “Spanish 3” if she’s fluent in Spanish.
    So, look at the languages&ests offered at the AP level in your region and see what tests she can take; but ONE test would certify sufficient knowledge for HS graduation and for college admissions.
    Will taking FL AP tests require a lot of preparation or just “reviewing the grading matrix and evaluation grid” (=if she knows what’s expected, she can deliver it without prep)?

IBD programs often offer high level (post AP-level) language classes, so she could take either her stronger foreign language as IB SL or even HL classes (one FL is required for the IB) and a couple APs in other languages.
Can you indicate which languages are under consideration?
For college admissions, all languages are the same, although having evidence of knowing so many languages and living in so many cultures would certainly stand out.
For medical school, fluency in one or more world languages can be quite useful if the language is spoken by people in the US; in that respect, Hmong can be more useful than German. In addition, doing sth with the language you know (ie., volunteering in any capacity at an after-school program, soup kitchen, shelter, Planned Parenthood… where you use the language) is useful.

  • the IBD is “useful” wrt to Med School in that most SLs are equivalent to APs but are not considered the way APs are. As a result, if you have the SL class you are not considered “repeating” the class (even if you effectively are, at least in part).
    The IBD Foreign Language SL (even more so, HL) would allow for a higher placement in college, possibly directly into advanced classes such as “Spanish for medical professions” or “Advanced conversation”.

A would-be premed’s HLs can be in any 3 subjects the student is strongest at but at least one should typically be Math or Science if the student indicates an intention to major in a science. Majoring in science is NOT required at all to apply to Med School. College students who are excellent in any major and also excellent in their premed pre-reqs do very, very well in med school admissions.
(just in case: premed is an intention; the classes aren’t “medical”. Would-be premeds have to be top 10% in any major + be as good at biology as the best bio majors, as good at chemistry as the best chem majors, as good as physics as the best physics majors and as good at biochem as biochem majors (but they take the class as juniors so they have an advantage :wink: ), do very well in English (composition, communication), sociology, psychology, cognitive or neuroscience, foreign language… In addition to being topnotch in every class, they get involved in all sorts of activities, volunteering, working, doing research… and yet nationally only 40% of those topnotch college students are admitted to med school.
So for 4 years they prepare but must have a plan B.)

  • The IBD is rather rigid: that guarantees a balanced program with in-depth classes, but is that what’s bes for your child?
    For instance, the combination for her would be sth like FL HL+ either (2 sciences HL&Maths AA SL) OR (Chem HL&Maths AI HL &BioSL) + English SL + Social science SL. Would that be something that would fit her academic profile? If not, the “pick and choose” nature of APs might work better.

  • The IBD makes is very difficult to study all 3 sciences so it’s best if the student took Biology or Physical Science as an 8th grader, Chemistry as a 9th, and Biology or Physics as a 10th grader (or any order the school chose, provided all 3 are taken before 11th grade), before starting on their IBD where they’ll typically study one science in-depth or perhaps 2 max.

  • Most serious premeds have already taken some AP classes, generally AP Bio and Calc AB, sometimes AP Chem and AP Physics1 on top of it. Typically they would then “retake” the class in college, having “previewed” it in HS. Med schools frown on the practice although it’s become generalized.
    The IB functions a bit differently in that only HLs “count” in that aspect, despite SLs being as thorough as many APs.
    Math AA SL is a good choice for future premeds if they take 2 science courses HL, giving them calc1 and intro stats material while allowing them to take Calc1 in college as if they’d never taken Calculus; the 2 sciences would typically be Chemistry at HL, plus Biology as their 6th subject either at SL or HL; this would allow them to stagger their science classes freshman year (a beginner’s mistake for freshmen who want to be premed is to rush their science classes, leading them to collapse. In particular, freshmen at top colleges shouldn’t take Organic Chemistry even if they “feel ready”, because compared to college sophomores or juniors they just can’t be).
    Alternatively, they could pick Math AI HL and cover all premed Math material (Calc 1+Stats), though credit equivalency is likely to vary depending on the college and the student may have to take Calc1 again, without it “counting” as a repeat AFAIK, then Biology would have to be SL and Chemistry HL.
    It really doesn’t matter, what matters are taking the strongest subjects at HL.

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Thank you, @MYOS1634. I truly appreciate your insights. Your response addressed all of my questions in a clear and organized manner.

I thought people usually took the CLEP in these situations rather than AP exams. The college board offers CLEP and I don’t have experience with it but knew people who were bilingual and simply took the CLEP for their foreign language credits.

In addition to English, my daughter has learned the following languages: Italian, Spanish, Chinese, French, and Latin. Among them, Italian is her strongest language, but unfortunately, it’s not offered anywhere in our area. Spanish and Chinese are her second and third strongest languages, respectively. French and Latin are her weakest languages, and I haven’t been able to find any classes for Latin in our area. It appears that Latin is only offered at UC and not elsewhere nearby.

In addition to English, my daughter has learned the following languages: Italian, Spanish, Chinese, French, and Latin. Among them, Italian is her strongest language, but unfortunately, it’s not offered anywhere in our area. Spanish and Chinese are her second and third strongest languages, respectively. French and Latin are her weakest languages, and I haven’t been able to find any classes for Latin in our area. It appears that Latin is only offered at UC and not elsewhere nearby.