<p>When my son was accepted to his first choice, during EA, he said he was done. We argued -- c'mon, keep your options open, apply to just a couple more. He said no. Not to be arrogant, but he didn't want to take a spot away from someone else when he was already in at the school he wanted. I know I'm in the minority, but I finally saw his point and decided maybe it was unfair for someone to apply to every possible school especially if they'd already had an early acceptance. But if you haven't been accepted early, since schools are so reluctant to give you any idea of your chances, I don't know that kids have a choice but to apply to "too many". I don't know how to make the process more transparent, but until kids have a realistic idea of their chances they don't really have an incentive to show restraint in the application process.</p>
<p>DS plans to apply to 7-8 schools next year, and like oldolddad, we will ask him to justify each. We are not likely to qualify for much FA, though we have siginificant medical expenses that might affect packaging. Our flagship offers good merit money and is strong in my son's interests -- it will definitely be on the table. Merit $$ at the other schools is available, but we'll have to see how that plays out.</p>
<p>Part of DS's evaluation process has involved him contacting profs to sit in on classes, talking to people in the departments he's interested in, asking questions on CC, and sorting out internally what he wants. It helps that he is taking a research class this semester that pushes these issues to the forefront as the kids search for mentors for summer research projects, write resumes, etc. (It takes the pressure off of us as parents -- we can have reasonable conversations with DS about schools without acrimony!)</p>
<p>Last summer we visited five schools, and he and my DH are out this week looking at several more. He's doing the difficult mental and emotional work now of evaluating himself and these schools. By the time he's ready to write essays, he will KNOW how these schools will help him attain his goals and what he brings to the table as well. </p>
<p>The vast majority of kids out here are not trophy hunting; they want a school they like which they and their family can afford.</p>
<p>Listen to Curmudgeon ... he writeth the truth. This game is tough, both in terms of selective admissions & financial/merit aid.</p>
<p>My D applied to 10, which included a nice array of options. Accepted to 8, waitlisted at 2. Could have worked out differently --- we know a young man who was rejected by every one of his schools 2 years ago (even a supposed "for sure"), so we weren't taking anything for granted. After applying, D kept researching, so whittled down AFTER apps were due. THEN came financial aid and merit notifications. Costs are a major issue, and aid is very, very important. There is a definite need to compare offers, and believe me ... they vary! </p>
<p>Did I detect a bit of holier-than-thou, goblue? While it's nice that you could save for college, not everyone is so fortunate. You may not have been affected by the economic realities that have derailed the finances of many of us. We all do what we can to try to make things work for our own situations. </p>
<p>So, please, don't judge people's choices. Like the song says, "You don't know how it feels to be me."</p>
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Question - do you think it is fair to encourage your children to apply to a ridiculous number of schools and possibly take admission opportunities as well as possibly scholarship opportunities away from other qualified students ?
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<p>Something else to feel guilty about? Not me. My job in this is to help my son prepare for his adult life. If this is the way the game is made, it's how I'm going to play it.</p>
<p>Where is the question of fairness? If a student wants to apply to 15 schools, and is willing to spend the time to craft a fine application, so be it. Not many students know which school they would like to attend, and there is much flux from September 1 to May1. Life is full of uncertainties, and for those who prefer to feel safe, let them. In the real world, when it somes to internships and job applications, are these same people going to be complaining about why Johnny sent out 40 applications? Truth be known, you could send out 40 internship applications, get 10 interviews, and then be lucky to get 1 job offer. Best be prepared now.</p>
<p>I'm just glad the OP wasn't advising my son--not that he would have listened.</p>
<p>We told him 6 or 7 was enough. Without our knowledge, he threw in an 8th that we didn't hear about until it was already sent. He didn't really feel strongly about the school, he told us later, but he heard they might have merit money for someone with his record. Number 8 has come through with a merit scholarship for full tuition/fees, a computer and a bit of cash, renewable for four years and guaranteed to increase with any rise in tuition. (It is a very good school, he has now visited, and he actually likes it.)</p>
<p>The boy has earned his keep.</p>
<p>I don't really care if he snatched this opportunity away from other qualified students. Sorry.</p>
<p>guess my family's crazy...but here's how mine went:</p>
<p>applied before visiting, but not before researching. i was lucky enough to go 5/5 (all schools i liked research-wise): big in state, pretty big private in town, prestigious public, big prestigious public, small private liberal arts. i visited all 5 after i got in; why would i want to go somewhere, fall in love with a school, and then be told i couldn't go there? seems like torture. i decided to apply to an array of schools so i could pick the one i wanted in the end. </p>
<p>it's down to prestigious public and big in state schools. the other 3 just weren't for me! glad i know now. -kristin</p>
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The boy has earned his keep.
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LOL! He sure has!</p>
<p>I DID view your comments as an insult to both my daughter and her choice of schools, goblue, and my inbox was full I wasn't ignoring private messages. I DID read both of the articles you mentioned and I can definately sympathize with those who applied to elite ivies. The fact that my D decided not to apply to any ivies or elite privates is beside the point (She could very well have been admitted to many but elected not to apply to any of them since she had very litte chance of receiving any merit aid). You obviously have no idea what it's like for the rest of the world who cannot afford to pay full freight. I think by judging the rest of the comments on this thread you must realize your elitist views constitute the minority opinion on this forum and you are obviously losing the fight here. 'nuff said.</p>
<p>p.s. and now I'm chosing to ignore your messages on purpose.</p>
<p>SpringfieldMom,</p>
<p>How can you take a general thread, posing a somewhat rhetorical question (as if any one person has the power to limit the # of applications kids send out) and translate it into a personal insult to you & your D? I think we need to dial the sensitivity and reactions down a notch here.</p>
<p>With regard to number of school applied, two of my kids applied to one and the other two applied to a dozen, since their record are less than stellar. They did all get into at least one of the top school and several ivys. We were prepared to pay full cost and didn't bother with applying for financial aid. This simplified our task.</p>
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I think the top colleges could do a lot more to eliminate the frenzy by giving more transparent information about their financial aid policies, especially in explaining how they treat various types of income, assets and expenses.
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<p>I agreed and I think there should also be a common application for financial aid.
Different schools could, according to their financial aid policy, select the category they belong to and the aid figure is then automatically calculated.</p>
<p>No one has the power of foresight, only hindsight. Yes, you may have seen the posts about the kids who went 10/10. But have you seen the posts for the kids who went 2/10? Are you going to say that you know in advance which kid will be which? I'm not.</p>
<p>And yes, particularly those kids who apply to the super select Ivies and LACs need to apply to many schools because you don't know which, if any, will accept you.</p>
<p>A friend's d applied to 11 schools, 5 of them ivies, all of which she had visited and liked. None of the 11 were what anyone could reasonably call "safeties" since they all had admit rates lower than 40%. They were all top tier schools. Her results? Waitlisted at 2 ivies, denied at 3, admitted at 8. But until that first acceptance came, her mother was terrified that she hadn't applied to a safety and wouldn't get in anywhere. Would I have advised the daughter to reduce the number of schools? Not me, not until I get my crystal ball fixed.</p>
<p>I agree with Calmom and Curmudgeon:</p>
<p>I think goblue is completely off the mark. Are there some kids who went crazy with apps - I'm sure there were. People have to apply to as many colleges as they need to. This whole admmissions thing is so crazy you never know. Besides goblue's ancedotal story about the 27 app's there are also threads where kids had lots of rejects. How about Jian Li?</p>
<p>I applied to seven schools, one wait-list; six accepts. Like most I needed options with regard to the merit/need based financial aid packages that different schools offer. Schools are maximizing their yield and students want options as well. That's the way the process goes now. Whining about it won't change that fact.</p>
<p>If goblues kid go wait-listed or rejected at schools he was interested in, I don't see how it is the fault of other people's applications. Do you seriously think that if a somewhat smaller pool of applicants had applied to your kids colleges it would have increased his chances significantly?</p>
<p>I felt it was a small miracle my well-rounded son without a hook and a major talent was accepted at 10 schools, waitlisted at one, because I had listened to all the hype in the press and from his h.s. counselor and believed he wasn't a shoo-in for a spot anywhere. He visited and interviewed at the majority of his schools, liked them and showed interest, they turned out to be matches so he applied, and then the remainder sent him VIP applications which were his safeties. Now I am told he didn't aim high enough, but he has great schools in a range of price tags to choose from and he could be happy at any of them. He feels remorse at having to turn them down because he became invested in them. Ironically enough, he fell most in love with McGill late in the process, which requires simply a GPA and tests scores. If he had known sooner, all the fuss and muss would have been avoided. My conclusion, trust it is likely you will get into a school you are a good fit with, schools are looking for this student. Who knew.</p>
<p>Boysofwinter: We fell into the "scared by the crapshoot of apps and the competition" trap. We were floored by the acceptances. We planned on 3-4. In retrospect we overshot.</p>
<p>This year, son applied to a dozen. 1 Safety (Accepted), 4 Match (Accepted to 3, Waitlisted to 1), and 7 Reaches (Accepted to 5, Waitlisted 1, Rejected 1). The acceptances to the reaches were a surprise, we were guessing he'd go 1 for 1 on the safety, at least 3 for 4 on the matches, and hopefully at least 1 for 7 on the reaches, yielding 5 or so to choose from. Of course, of these schools he had "favorites," so hopefully 1 or 2 out of the 5 would be those!</p>
<p>The way we assessed a reach was, if he was LOWER than the 75th percentile, AND if the regular decision acceptance rate was less than 30%. </p>
<p>Last year, older son applied to 1 Safety (Accepted), 4 Match (Accepted to 4), and 3 Reaches (Waitlisted 1, Rejected 2), using the same method.</p>
<p>So often the message here is that there are hundreds of fine schools in this country and good students can succeed at any of them, college will be what you make of it, etc.</p>
<p>Then people ask how a kid could possibly find more than 5 or 6 schools that would be a match/someplace they would attend.</p>
<p>Which is it?</p>
<p>I know when D is a freshman, S will be a senior, and we will have a very low EFC. We will find ourselves following the same plan as SFM and Curm. Looking for a great FA package at a selected list of schools that D will be happy at.</p>
<p>Regarding Post 53,
I don't think that most people would classify 7 schools as "application gluttony." I don't think that anyone's trying to set some arbitrary limit on an acceptable level. And when one throws in financial aid efforts, all bets are off.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, the following bears repeating:
Like doubleplay, many families -- ourselves included -- believed hype and fear-mongering and No-One-Gets-In-Anywhere stories. This can be true not just for "novice" families who've been out of the loop since parents' college days, but equally so for those repeating the process after a few years. (Different population, new policies by colleges -- including Early Decision --, testing changes, etc.)</p>
<p>Colleges really do fuel some of this -- by the marketing that's been referred to(and I don't only mean mailers), by exaggerations and excessive sales efforts by visiting reps. The efforts of many high schools to remain competitive in the selective admissions scene also has an impact. Add to that the publishing boom about admissions. Let's face it: it's an industry, and an industry with very few controls.</p>
<p>Therefore -- even though I think colleges might want to revisit some matching scheme (perhaps voluntary?) that would skirt the aforementioned legal issues of restraint-of-trade -- at the moment it's up to real grown-ups to self-regulate. I think that colleges need to step up to the plate with regard to toning down the marketing and toning up the disclosure. I think that GC's at ALL high schools -- all types, all locations -- should be way more responsible than they generally are. I think that when a student has 18 or 23 applications -- all in the same category of difficulty -- that the school should urge (not require) a thoughtful re-do of the list in conversation with the family.</p>
<p>I'm not denying that the unknowns, fueled by hype, cause many families to err on the side of abundance. Had my D not received one EA acceptance to a highly desirable reach (and accompanying predictable full aid), she would have applied to at least 9 schools (haha, if she had the time, which she was running out of in sr. yr.).</p>
<p>But in so many cases I see even just on CC, easily half of a reach list does not belong there, and that information is available via GC's and parents. I don't mean "doesn't belong" because of some arbitrary cap; I mean "doesn't belong" because most of those reaches are not interested in a non-hooked applicant from an advantaged economic background from an overly represented region and nothing really special in the e.c. category. Some of these posts are just lists, lists, lists that are practically interchangeable, and the results are not surprising. Colleges and GC's should be doing some of this educating, even if parents aren't. (For example, many students on CC actually believe that perfect scores are a hook. Amazing.)</p>
<p>Furthermore, the high schools and the parents need to look at how a heavily reach-stacked list can backfire. I'm seeing an awful lot of rejections (not just waitlisting) of "over"qualified students this year, in a way I have not seen that before, with the match students for that college nevertheless admitted. This also speaks to the information factor. I mean, students at my D's h.school keep getting messages from the GC that historically match colleges for our graduates are suddenly like HYP. Her reasoning? She's pointing to the "even 3.8's who are not getting in," and that therefore, Don't bother to apply unless you have a 3.9 or above. (Not top-tier U's, btw.) Well has she noticed that the 3.6's <em>are</em> getting in?</p>
<p>Diehard idealist that I am, I don't believe that nothing can be done to improve the system. For starters, I don't think that colleges make maximum use of technology, for example. How about a streaming virtual town hall meeting, where colleges (again, in consortium style if that's fitting) can provide disclosure about the process, about the kinds of features that make for success at their own institutions, about the relative value of aspects like scores and e.c.'s, the h.s. curriculum, etc. Some people in admissions do that in their fashion, with time constraints, on their own time here on CC. But it's bits and pieces. (Hey, maybe we need an Admissions Rep forum: "Ask an officer". That would be a start.)</p>
<p>Wow, epiphany, I think Ask an Officer would be great! In my son's case, while I <em>trusted</em> the guidance people we talked to, I wasn't sure even they would know how cutthroat the competition would be this year. Honestly, after reading andison's story, I thought anyone who hadn't read that saga couldn't be completely relied on. Also our hs GC has little experience with our school's success rate for colleges outsite the NE because so few of our students apply to those schools. I was most reassured by hearing from soozievt because I think she has a broader experience geographically, but by then all the apps were in. I did tell my son after he had sent the first 6 apps (Goucher, Lewis & Clark, Carleton, Macalester, Grinnell and Oberlin), that I thought he could safely stop there. He soldiered on, however and applied to Haverford, Vassar, Reed and Pomona. At that point, I felt it was his choice, after all of his hard work, to go for any option he wanted.</p>
<p>
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I think that when a student has 18 or 23 applications -- all in the same category of difficulty -- that the school should urge (not require) a thoughtful re-do of the list in conversation with the family.
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<p>That is exactly what we did, and I am happy we stayed the course. Our D applied to 18 ultra-selective schools, not just because they were the ones offering the program she was interested in, but also because they were the ones most likely to offer generous need-based aid. She is just like many of the typical CC posters: high but interchangeable stats, non-hooked, from an overrepresented region, advantaged economic background (but not enough to pay full freight) and nothing really special in the e.c. category. </p>
<p>Just because the odds are against such candidates, the solution is not to give up hope. The only possible response is playing the number's game. The Ivies enroll 10,000 distinct students in the RD round alone (They admit over 15,000 but many are multiple admits). While many are hooked, many are not. The ultra-selective schools despite all their talk of "holistic admission' still need to admit large numbers of kids just like our D just to maintain their high median SATs and GPAs. We figured that if 50% of kids at Ivies admitted RD were unhooked, then our D would have a 50/50 chance of getting admitted to at least one of them if she applied to all. In the end she applied to 7 Ivies and was admitted to 2. On the other hand, it was not the two we would necessarily have predicted in advance. She was also admitted to MIT which was a complete surprise. In the end she had 8 admits, 4 waitlists and 6 rejections, but which school ended up in which category was not predictable beforehand. We just assumed that we would have some reasonable choices, academically and financially, by having our D apply to many selective schools. Her number was bound to show up at some point.</p>