<p>So even if it works fine for 99% of the kids, is it stupid for them all to try?</p>
<p>Hello everyone 
Wow, I actually did not know this thread would get this much attention.
To clarify some things I actually do need some financial aid but I also have a large amount of money I have saved over the years ($60,00) I will be putting the money towards my college education. I come from a low-income family, and neither of my parents attended college. I’m also a minority (if that makes much of a difference)
I believe applying early-decision to Barnard, combined with an interview will increase my chances of being accepted. Barnard is my dream school and if accepted I would defintly choose to attend there over any college.</p>
<p>Vossron, isn’t 99%. Very few students who truly are financially needy are stupid enough to apply ED to a college like Barnard, unless they can be very sure that their FAFSA EFC will be determinative. I would think that most potential applicants to Barnard are too smart to cut off their options that way. Only a small fraction of ED applicants are also applying for financial aid & expecting/needing a significant amount. (I’m not talking about upper middle class families who are hoping to get a small discount over the COA - I’m talking about the kids who really need a lot of financial help to attend a private college). </p>
<p>I have gotten a lot of PM’s from Barnard admittees who were unhappy with their aid, and a significant number of students admitted in the spring end up going elsewhere for financial reasons. Barnard is probably as generous as they can be, but the school does not have a large endowment, so they do use the CSS Profile, they do go over tax returns carefully, they do look at assets and income that are not considered for FAFSA, and they expect their students to contribute a substantial amount through earnings and to take out the maximum available Stafford loans. </p>
<p>You don’t have any direct experience with Barnard or their financial aid office… and yet you are going to come into this thread and encourage potentially needy students to apply ED. To me, that is irresponsible – because you have no clue as to what a Barnard’s financial aid awards look like or what their policies are. (This is a Barnard-specific thread – so whatever your experience may have been with any other school, it doesn’t apply here. Some of your comments, such as your reference to “FA funds can run out at RD time” - just show that you are clueless as to Barnard’s financial aid process. (Barnard is very formulaic – that can work for or against a student, depending on circumstances). Maybe there are other schools that are more generous to ED applicants - I don’t know, but Barnard isn’t one of them.</p>
<p>sshjuskissme, you have a misplaced comma ($60,00) - so I don’t know whether you’ve saved $6,000 or $60,000. If it the latter, then those assets are going to reduce your eligibility for financial aid substantially – and would stick with my original statement: if you aren’t willing or able to pay the full COA or close to it at Barnard, don’t apply ED. (If it is the former – $6,000 – well, that might seem like a lot of money to you, but that won’t go far, and it won’t make much of a difference in the financial aid award). </p>
<p>For what its worth, my kid was an RD admit – she is not a minority and she has test scores that were in the bottom quarter of her class – and she was admitted during what I believe was the most competitive and selective year in Barnard’s history. The way I look at it, if it is meant to be for a student to attend Barnard, she’ll get in whenever she applies.</p>
<p>calmom, thanks, I get it, and thanks for keeping it civil. But tell us: What is the percentage of Barnard ED FA applicants that get such a smaller final package than the original estimate that they must abandon their Barnard plans? This is what applicants need to know. Barnard was our D1’s second choice (she really liked it!), but she got her first choice, so we didn’t get to know the school. Thanks!</p>
<p>calmom: I am sure what you say is largely true, but your D had the advantage of being from the other coast. DD’s regional rep told her that LI was one of the toughest sells.</p>
<p>Each case of risk/benefit is different.</p>
<p>I think your prudence is the right approach for most families, but not all. And I think your counsel is wise and knowledgeable.</p>
<p>I apologize, I misplaced a comma :x
I saved $40,000 from working, and I recieved $20,000 from my grandmothers death.
So a total of $60,000.</p>
<p>I’ve worked hard in school to recieve the grades I recieved, and the high SAT score so honestly I don’t think it’s fair for me to settle for a public university. I want to go somewhere considered to be selective. The colleges that I’m applying to are all selective, two of them located in New York City. Majority of the schools I’m applying to probably aren’t very generous with their financial aid. Honestly I think Barnard would offer me about the same amount as any of the other schools I’m applying to would. So why not apply early decision? To increase my chances? What do you think?</p>
<p>Does anyone know on average about how many students apply for admission at Barnard each year? And how many get accepted?</p>
<p>If you have $60K in the bank under your own name, that could substantially reduce eligibility for financial aid, unless your parents are poor enough to qualify for simplified needs analysis. It’s possible that you can shelter some of it by putting it into a 529 account – but you need advice of a someone more knowledgeable than me about that. But potentially that can push your EFC up by $12,000 over and above the amount it would otherwise be. If you are still working and have comparatively high earnings, that could push your EFC up even higher.</p>
<p>Since you are going to Barnard for an interview, I would advise that you get as much info about your parents financial status as you can, and arrange to meet with someone in the financial aid office while you are there. They may be able to give you a much better explanation as to how that money would impact any potential financial aid. </p>
<p>I think that you are mistaken to assume that you wouldn’t get better aid at any other private college. It depends, but when you throw the possibility of merit aid into the equation, you could have a very nice package somewhere, especially outside of NY. </p>
<p>When you say your parents are low-income, what do you mean by “low”? Are your parents together? Are they currently employed?</p>
<p>Barnard’s admissions data is available here:
[Barnard</a> - Finance and Planning](<a href=“http://www.barnard.edu/opir/commondata.html]Barnard”>http://www.barnard.edu/opir/commondata.html)</p>
<p>Barnard gets roughly 4500 applicants and accepts about 1300, for an entering class of roughly 550 students. About 1/3 of the entering class are ED admits.</p>
<p>My parents are not together and have never been married.
My mother recieves government assistants as well.</p>
<p>OK, then, what is your relationship with your dad and what is his income like? Barnard is REALLY hard to deal with in the noncustodial-parent thing. In addition to the noncustodial parent form with the CSS Profile, they also want complete tax returns from the noncustodial parent… and they will not write a financial aid award until they get that. If your dad is in the picture in any way, but is not 100% cooperative when it comes to providing requested info … you are going to have a tough time dealing with Barnard financial aid. (And if your dad is not in the picture – then you are going to have to document that). </p>
<p>I would note that Barnard is the ONLY college I have dealt with that wants this level of information from the NC parent. It has been a huge headache for us with financial aid – and has caused delays in our getting an award. </p>
<p>If your mom receives governmental assistance, then under FAFSA you will probably qualify for simplified needs test, meaning that your $60,000 won’t be counted at all toward your FAFSA EFC. A college that makes a financial aid determination based on FAFSA-only may give you pretty good financial aid.</p>
<p>I know this doesn’t apply to Barnard (wish it did!), but for general completeness:</p>
<p>I asked D1’s LAC about it, and the current staff has never seen a case of an ED FA estimate being lowered that results in inability to attend. There are one or two cases per year of the ED FA estimate being lowered, but it has been at higher incomes ($100K+), and all such students have attended anyway. There are also cases of the ED FA estimate being raised when family income drops.</p>
<p>I’d like to hear about other schools, but I suppose this isn’t the thread for it.</p>
<p>Vossron, sshjuskissme has not posted since I raised the issue about her noncustodial parent, so I don’t know what her situation is. </p>
<p>If she has contact with her dad but cannot get his cooperation on filling out forms plus submitting copies of his W2’s and tax returns… she will not get financial aid from Barnard. If she gets his cooperation for an ED application, but then he flakes out and refused to fill out the forms or submit the paperwork in the spring… then she will lose whatever award she was given tentatively in the fall. </p>
<p>Between my 2 kids I’ve dealt with submitting financial aid to 21 different colleges and Barnard was the only one that insisted on getting up-front copies of tax returns from the noncustodial parent in addition to the CSS Profile forms. </p>
<p>This is why I don’t think it is appropriate for someone who has no experience with a particular college to come onto a thread under that college’s forum, and purport to give advice about ED and financial aid. It doesn’t matter what your D’s LAC has “seen” – your D’s LAC many not have the same policies about noncustodial parents. </p>
<p>I’m not kidding here. I have had 4 years of stress over this issue, and come very, very close to losing the financial aid entirely one year. I was told by someone in Barnard financial aid office that some continuing students are unable to return because of lost aid because of this issue. It’s not like the financial aid office merely reduces the grant – its an all or nothing thing, and no paperwork from the father can mean no aid, no matter how needy the family.</p>
<p>Now I assume that it is possible that the Barnard financial aid people sometimes make a waiver or an exception – but the bottom line is that my personal, direct experience is that Barnard is very strict about this issue – and it is a particularly risky thing for a financially needy student whose parents are not married to apply ED, unless she can be reasonably certain that both parents will fully participate completing all needed paperwork.</p>
<p>I said “I know this doesn’t apply to Barnard” and “this isn’t the thread for it” and “but for general completeness.” Sigh.</p>
<p>Go post in the Financial Aid forum, then. That’s where people look for “general” information. When they come to a specific college thread, they want to know something about THAT college’s policies and practices. </p>
<p>College policies and practices vary widely. One reason an ED application can be a bad idea is because students mistakenly believe that the colleges are more consistent or similar in financial aid policies than they really are. I mean, ED takes away the ability to compare packages, and that may leave some students unaware that their aid package is threadbare compared to what other colleges might offer. So it is counterproductive if someone asks about ED at college A, and gets an answer along the lines of “don’t worry, almost all colleges do X”. Maybe college A is the exception – and knowing that is especially important in determining whether to apply ED, specifically because the ED applicant is potentially giving up her ability to seek financial aid from all the other colleges.</p>
<p>I was thinking of your posts here #9, #16 and #20 that are also not Barnard-specific.</p>
<p>I think of those students needing FA who applied ED to their dream school, were accepted with adequate aid and had their dreams fulfilled. Many had a boost applying ED that they would not have had applying RD. I cannot suggest that they were wrong.</p>
<p>This is a Barnard thread. </p>
<p>The differential between admit rates ED & RD at Barnard is not that great, and ED overall is a program that exists primarily as a way for colleges to lock in full-pay students. They may claim to be need-blind, but they know that the bulk of their ED applicants are able to pay full freight and colleges that make particular generous promises as to financial aid also have tended to drop ED in favor of SCEA. If the balance of ED shifts to a large number of financially needy students, there is no longer any advantage to the college to offer ED. It really is NOT some sort of special love-fest program designed to boost the chances of borderline admissions for financially needy students. </p>
<p>So basically I think that the students who think they have to apply ED because it improves their “chances” are buying into a myth… right along with they myth that Barnard or any other college is their “dream” school that is will provide them with some sort of qualitatively different educational experience than the dozens of alternatives that anyone with a chance of getting into Barnard would clearly have.</p>
<p>“So basically I think that the students who think they have to apply ED because it improves their “chances” are buying into a myth.”</p>
<p>During an info session we were actually told,point blank to our faces, that it does clearly improve one’s chances, by an admissions officer at another selective LAC. The experience of my own family leads me to the opinion that this holds equally true at Barnard. My D1, with 2310 & other stuff, applied RD there & was waitlisted, while D2, a less outstanding candidate (though still quite great), applied ED and got in. This is of course just anecdotal, without really reading all the applications to judge their true character one does not have sufficient inside insight to say for sure. But when an adcom, who does read all those applications and has that insight, point blank tells me something that takes it out of “myth” realm, as for that school anyway, to me at least.</p>
<p>There are a number of schools where the published admitted % numbers tilt very strongly towards ED candidates, vs. RD. There are all sorts of rationalizations one might use to explain away this discrepancy, if you are really on a mission to maintain one’s “myth” thesis, despite the %s. But the %s are not myths.</p>
<p>This does not of course mean anyone “has” to apply ED. It just may increase the odds of admission.You may well still get in anyway, in RD. My own speculation is that D1 would have been accepted, not waitlisted, had she applied ED. But of course we’ll never know.</p>
<p>However, if FA is going to be part of your decision, ED is simply not a great option. In which case you will probably need to forego any potential admissions bump via ED. That doesn’t mean there isn’t any.</p>
<p>BTW D2 <em>did</em> think Barnard would provide her with a qualitatively somewhat different experience than dozens of other schools would, in ways that she felt were important to her. At the time she wanted to mix liberal arts with the best available dance program. She was not equally interested in dozens of other colleges. While hardly “dream school” status, she did have a clear preference that made ED reasonable for her, at the time. As it happens, things have changed since then. But back then, there was no place else that she felt was an equal or better choice for her. </p>
<p>Most schools have their own unique features, that can make them not completely interchangable with dozens of others to particular applicants. If money is an issue, holding on to these particular aspects may be luxuries that one cannot afford. But that’s a different issue.</p>
<p>
As I noted, ED gives the colleges an advantage because it enables them to lock in a lot of full pay or almost full-pay students early. So of course it is also in their interest to encourage students to apply ED.</p>
<p>I do think that ED increases the chance of admission… for the students that the school wants to lock in. The high financial need student with divorced or never-married parents is not that student – unless it is also a highly accomplished financially needy student. </p>
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<p>My daughter was very disappointed in the quality of Barnard’s dance program. It may very well be the “best” available at a LAC, but overall the offerings are pretty limited for an advanced level dancer. The main advantage that Barnard has is its proximity to Steps.</p>
<p>But my point is, that’s part of the “dream school” myth. In the “dream”, the student pictures herself dancing with Allegra Kent – in the reality, it turns out that Allegra Kent is an adjunct who comes in once a week, on Fridays, to teach classes so packed full of students that there’s not really enough room to move. Is that better than a school that doesn’t have Allegra Kent on faculty? Probably. But it isn’t going to provide the level of training that a serious ballet student wants - and its a let down for a the student who has experience with a pre-professional studio or one who, like my daughter, was used to better facilities and a more extensive repertoire at her arts high high school than the college offered. </p>
<p>The “dream” is the intersection between what the high school senior thinks she wants and what she thinks her chosen college offers. When she gets to the school, reality sets in, and it seldom lives up to the “dream”. </p>
<p>The kid who applies to a number of schools has more time to explore and compare. Often, students find out about specific options and programs later in the process, through information conveyed only after they are admitted – for example, a mailing received about a special program that is sent only to admitted students who are eligible for that program. So that student may revise her opinions about what school offer the “best” as more information comes in. Neither of my kids even knew all the right questions to ask in October of their senior years – both learned a lot from their peers as time went on, and their view were shaped by that. </p>
<p>I’m sure that there is a level of cognitive dissonance that sets in for ED students who are admitted – that is, they probably put up filters to avoid considering possible negative information that is learned in February, or to avoid acknowledging disappointment if they learn they are mistaken about some assumption. But that still doesn’t change the fact that when my daughter was admitted to 9 different colleges, she had a broader array of information and choices than her Barnard friends who came in as ED admits. Financially, many of those options were not real choices – but the information that came through those channels also refined the way she looked at Barnard.</p>
<p>
That’s the point. Things change. They almost always do.</p>
<p>They might not change between October and April, and in that case, the ED vs. RD idea of a “dream” school might be irrelevant. But they CAN change between October and April, and the ED applicant has potentially locked herself in. That your daughter had a clear preference but didn’t think of Barnard as her “dream school” is a good indication that she went through a more critical thought process – ALSO recognizing that the idea of the “dream” is a myth, and instead thinking in terms of simply opting for what seemed like a pretty good choice at the time. Since your d. had an older sister at Barnard, she probably had a far more realistic view of the school than most applicants in any case – and the sibling factor is probably a greater hook with ED than later in the game. </p>
<p>I’m concerned about the lure of the “dream” really hurting students like the OP, who may find themselves either without any choice in the end because of financial constraints, or who may unwittingly be tying themselves to an option that will cause more financial hardship in the long run, because they don’t really appreciate the lost opportunities inherent in the choice.</p>