<p>Cheers,
Thank you for the positive post. My stomach was being to sink after reading this thread. Before my daughter applied to school, she was fortunate to work as an intern at RTKL. She spent her school breaks and the summer after her Jr. year there. All of the people treated her extremely well. When she asked whether they were happy with their profession and if they would rather do something else the answer was the same. All were happy with their decision.
It's important to remember that the grass always seems greener on the other side. My husband and I are in the medical/health profession. Please stay away from any health related profession or anything that has to do with it including medical research... you'll wind up working for an HMO and have insurance companies dictate your practice. You'll graduate after 4 years of college and four years of professional school maybe longer if you decide to specialize and make 30K as a resident for years... working 16 hour days. If you decide to go to graduate school for 5-7 years, you'll have to do at least a 4 year post-doc and work in a lab for 18 hours a day. For the rest of your life you'll wind up fighting for grants to keep your job. (My husband was a resident at Penn and made 13K/yr). Yes for real and they were doing him the favor. Most of the world think doctors/dentists make a fortune. Well they don't and I haven't even begun about the cost of establishing and running a practice, associated stress and the cost of insurance. I only mentioned the medical profession because of an earlier post. How about emergencies and being oncall (24/7)? I love taking my daughters to work with me, and they loved being with me. Would you like to hear horror stories about being a lawyer?</p>
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ok, wait a second. I just realized- why is it ok to base a hiring decision on whether the candidate does or does not know Mandarin Chinese so that they can communicate with Chinese clients, but it is not ok to base a hiring decision off of whether the candidate knows English or not, so that they can communicate with the people in their workplace? Sorry for the rant, but Marsden directing me to re-read the link originally posted made me really think about this issue, and it's something that genuinely bugs me.
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<p>Nearly missed this! What an excellent point, which really hadn't occurred to me so specifically before. We get excoriated (or worse, prosecuted) if we discriminate in favor of English-speaking people, here in this putatively-English-speaking country, but we're permitted to *publish *a preference for Chinese or Spanish speaking, etc etc. </p>
<p>Recommend you start a thread in a general-interest section of this website, where you'll get some relevant (and possibly illuminating) replies.</p>
<p>I never worked that many long nights--at school, in the famous offices, in my own office. I did have a partner in a famous office ring me and ask me to give the appearance of working long hours since I was able to complete all tasks by 5:30 pm for 40 weeks of the year. I asked him if my work was on time and he said it was usually ahead of schedule. I refused to stay at the office for appearances. They didn't fire me. I don't remember any children in any New York office except on Saturdays.</p>
<p>I certainly had a far easier lifestyle than any 20-something lawyer, doctor, investment banker I knew.</p>
<p>The long hours of architecture? What a lot of hooey. Architects get into the habit of time-wasting and procrastinating at school and then they bring that to the office. Charettes are an essential part of the business but offices that use non-stop charettes to do business are not well run. I never worked in such an office. I worked for architects who were workaholics but they never imposed that on the staff.</p>
<p>At this point, I probably work 30 hours a week for 25 weeks of the year and 50 hours a week for 20 weeks--with 5 or 6 weeks holiday.</p>
<p>^^^ But you work for yourself, so you can do whatever you want. </p>
<p>In the top offices in places like NY, punishingly long hours and low pay are the norm. I'm not extrapolating from a personal situation--all the "design" firms are that way, and you can look it up. There's a fair amount of discussion online. If I wanted to generalize from my own position, I could say the same as you--how else would I have time to chat on the internet? (And if you read more closely, you'll see that I mentioned children in the office on Saturdays only. They certainly wouldn't have been allowed on other days.) </p>
<p>But it would be doing a genuine disservice to potential entrants into the field to mislead them about the long hours and low pay which are endemic to the profession. However, if you are happy doing the working drawings for industrial buildings and shopping plazas in Omaha or Kansas City, you'll have easier working conditions. The reason for this is logic itself: there's far less competition for such positions.</p>
<p>Big jobs that pay badly</p>
<p>"Architects with a master's degree might enter the work force with between $50,000 and $80,000 in student loan debt. But as first-year interns, they might earn only $34,000, the national median according to the** 2005 compensation survey by the American Institute of Architects**.
Meanwhile, several steps up the ladder, senior architects earn a median of $68,900."</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>I will add my experience as it gives a possible career path that some architects fall into. After beating my head against the profession for many years and not able to tolerate the instability, I ended up in government (NYC). There are many qualified (and unqualified) architects who end up here. It is not a very satisfying existence as far as creativity goes but it is stable. When you have a family and a mortgage and you are over 40 and have gone through two brutal recessions (late 70s and early 90s), stability and a decent wage look pretty good. It was not the career I planned but I know people who are doing worse and with a working spouse I have afforded to live in NYC in what most would consider a large apartment by Manhattan standards and send one child to private school.</p>
<p>I was told before I entered the profession that I would not make much money and they were right. The advice I give to those in architecture school is look around and see what other allied fields there are. I believe that 50% of graduating architects leave the profession in the first five years. With that, there is still an oversupply most years. So in those first five years, see what the other possibilities are. It might be construction, law, banking (construction lending), real estate development and finance (an area I tried to get into but my timing was never good. I got an MBA in 1992, the depths of the recession that did not abate in NYC until 1996). </p>
<p>No offense to Cheers but she is looking at the profession from the top down and those considering the profession need to know what the view is from the bottom. What she says is what you can aspire to but very few actually reach. I give her all the credit in the world for attaining what she has but it is certainly not typical.</p>
<p>"she is looking at the profession from the top down and those considering the profession need to know what the view is from the bottom"</p>
<p>This is a great point- many students I know who went into architecture shadowed a principal at an office for a couple of days, or visited architecture offices in highschool to see what it would be like. But who did they focus on? The design principal and/or owner. Who did they admire and want to be like and spend time talking to? The person in charge. Not the intern, not the project manager, but the single person out of 5 to 50 in the office who gets real design input. This is a big reason why there is an exodus in the first five years: nobody thinks about what the vast majority of the profession does every day when they get into it, they think only about what the very top, oldest, most experienced people do. Not everybody who leaves does so because they "can't cut it", some could have made fine architects eventually, but most people just plain won't take that stuff. They don't see the reason, don't think it's worth it, feel like they could do better for themselves.</p>
<p>So for those who want to be architects: don't just look up to the boss. He'll treat you like his pet when you visit the office, but make sure to notice how he treats his employees, what they do every day, too. Even if you make it to the top someday, it'll take a lot of years of doing the rest of it before you do.</p>
<p>I will add one minor point to add to Larationalist. Most architecture grads will not get the title of "designer". There is way too much competition for the few eligable slots. Most architects will become project managers or designer/ project managers. It would be useful if the schools would give that message. Mostly, the message is that you are a designer or you are not. Project management is not seen as an early valid career path. The profession always has a need for this position as does the whole construction industry. As this is what most architects do, it would be useful to put more emphasis in this area.</p>
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<p>i was thinking about getting the b.arch and maybe going to law school or something if it didnt work out/turned out different than i expected. how do you think a b.arch would be looked upon by law schools, would it "prepare" (im not sure what i mean by this) you as well as a B.A would? </p>
<p>right now i think im going to apply to half b.arch programs and half b.a. programs, im just trying to see which one would give the most options.</p>
<p>I've heard anecdotally that Law schools like architecture grads because they understand the nuances of intellectual property, but I would talk to law schools specifically about this to be sure.</p>
<p>RyanMac, I will give you my father's line (who was a lawyer) about preparing for law school. Take anything but pre-law as you will waste time in law school unlearning what you learned as an undergraduate. Others might know better but I don't think you need any specific undergraduate program to get into law school. You might also think about working for a few years after college before you go to law school as is the norm for business school. This might help you focus on what you might do as a lawyer. I believe that there are many lawyers out there who went to law school because they did not have any specific goals after graduating college and law school looked like a way to make a lot of money and after ten years as a lawyer can't stand the profession but can't do anything else to make that kind of money. Most architects are just the opposite as many (myself included since age 10) have always known that this is what they wanted to do regardless of the lack of monetary rewards.</p>
<p>It is very good to ask these questions now so you have some sense of reality. Having said that, remember that this is a public place of discourse where anybody can spout their opinion without any necessity to back it up with any facts. Take all this information with a grain of salt. Sometimes the bitterness of people's lives comes out here. I saw one thread on lawyers that was just virulent. Keep the questions coming. You can see that many of the adults here have had quite different experiences in the profession and it will be very difficult for you to figure out which path you might end up following.</p>
<p>thanks a lot. i know what you mean like architects have always known they wanted to be architects and such, i just kind of discovered anything in the art/design world last year, but this summer im going to risd's pre-college architecture to make sure its something i really love. i guess i thought a b.arch would be very pigeon-holling, but it doesnt seem so now.</p>
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you wouldn't have lasted a month in the top offices I know.
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<p>Yeah. That's not personal. That's a breach of CC terms in fact.</p>
<p>With 'respect', I not only 'lasted' at two very very famous offices--I did my entire three year apprenticeship in very famous offices, Marsden--working for truly Pritzker-prize winning illustrious architects. When I left one to work for another, the hiring partner kicked the wall. He was very sorry to see me go. </p>
<p>I remain good friends with that partner and many of the partners and hiring partners of those firms in New York. I don't have the same recollection of them as you do--and neither do my colleagues.</p>
<p>It wasn't a nightmare of hours--for me. Others in the office may have put in 80 hours a week. I didn't--except when producing big sets. I had fun, I learned a ton and I would recommend the experience to every ambitious young architect.</p>
<p>I'm sure this is not unique to this thread, but I am amazed at the number of people who view these pages and obviously do not participate. 731 views with only about 10 people saying anything. Maybe the lurkers can come out of the shadows and add something to the discussion.</p>
<p>I'm a lurker -- an insanely indecisive high school student who is considering architecture among 40984324902 other potential career choices and really do not have anything informative to add to the discussion. ;)</p>
<p>Yeah, I used to be crazy about arch. I applied and got into USC, IIT, WashU and the like but I decided to take a gap year and reapply. Developed an interest in math. Got into a number of LACs. Now I'm studying music, math, physics and drawing. My college has a couple of arch design courses I plan to take next year, including a couple of art history classes. I'll also do painting and more drawing. I may end up going for an M.Arch - who knows. I still love arch. And if the classes I take next year blow me away - that may be it.</p>
<p>im in a similar situation to you jrock (or that you were, it seems) but im a junior in hs. im applying to half liberal arts colleges and half b.arch programs. hopefully the program im doing this summer will give me a better understanding to see if arch is what i really want, or to go to a LAC.</p>
<p>A career in architecture sucks for most people, there is no other way to put it. This is coming from someone who loves practicing architecture. The salary survey in an earlier post is a very real fact. The vast, vast majority of architects do not make much money.</p>
<p>The pay relative to the quantity work, education, risk, and responsibility required is way too low compared to other careers. For that reason I have seen many passionate, talented people leave the profession over the years. The talent that is left, in general, isnt great. Speaking to someone choosing a collage major I would say that success of any kind is in the person, not in the school or career they choose. Those talented people found what they were looking for artistic expression, money, and interesting careers - in other ways. So pursuing a major in architecture is worth doing if it is something you are really interested in. But that pursuit should be with an understanding of the realities of the profession. </p>
<p>There are many reasons for the bad condition of the profession. I can start with the fact that the general public does not see value in architecture work like they do in other professions. Most people pay highly for medical or legal advice, but they look at a set of construction drawings and see simple lines, not a valuable service. </p>
<p>Second, the artist mentality of many in the field leads to poor business practices and a self-defeating market. Many architects are so focused on expressing their creativity that they ignore simple business practice, not considering the true time they put into a job, estimating costs correctly, billing clients correctly, living up to deadlines, etc. So a naive client (most are) will simply hire based on low price, and a responsible architect is forced to loose work to an irresponsible architect, or cut prices. In a large firm the artistic mentality leads to the concept that one must so dedicated to their art or profession that they will spend endless hours working at it, regardless of pay. Many large firms foster a culture where draftsmen (cad monkeys) show their dedication by working endless hours.</p>
<p>Third, the laws and regulations surrounding the profession continue to raise the difficulty and responsibilities of architects. Building codes, environmental concerns, and the legal environment continue to raise the bar of performance for architects. And the pay has not followed.</p>
<p>I could go on, but this post is already too long. My own solution to the problem of income is to work in the related fields of construction and real estate development. I can get a better income while still working in close contact with architecture. </p>
<p>I hope this helps</p>
<p>Depending on your talent and skill architecture can be either a great profession, or a very tough way to make a living. I thought I would just put some facts down as I know them. My firm does fairly large commercial and institutional projects, and I think we are pretty typical for firms our size in this area.</p>
<p>Starting salary straight out of school with a professional degree; $45,000. You are eligible for a 10% bonus. </p>
<p>We put between 8%to 12% of your annual salary into your 401K, some matching and some end of year lump sum.</p>
<p>Full health and dental, we don't pay for your dependent coverage, but we subsidize it.</p>
<p>40 hours of training a year. Company pays for your time, offers many in-house courses and gives you a budget of about $1,500. The budget is higher as you gain experience.</p>
<p>We have four junior principals in the office. They have between 10 to 15 years of experience. Salary of around $100k, with a 30% bonus eligibility and a $9,000 a year car allowance. Two are managers, one is a designer, and one is in business development. They have all been with us over 10 years.</p>
<p>We are always looking for design talent. We visit perhaps 6 schools a year, interview 200 kids, make 8 to 10 offers, get perhaps five who accept. Many of these will make design contributions, but perhaps one out of ten will have the ability to be a 'clean sheet designer' (start with a clean sheet and a program). That does not mean they will not have a great career, rise to a leadership position and be well compensated. Most come to recognize where their real skills lay, others will bounce around a while before they figure it out.</p>
<p>This is not investment banking, but overall I don't think it is a bad way to make a living. </p>
<p>Regards,
rick</p>
<p>I'm sorry, what area are you in? That package is so beyond typical for where I'm at. I'm at a company where we're considered to have an uncommonly good benefits package, and our bonuses are in the range of 2%, with a 3% salary match into the 401(k), health and vision but no dental (would rather have dental than vision, and our health plan is pretty much worthless), no professional development whatsoever, no licensing support. This seems like an ok package, until you realize that all of my friends are in worse situations and would kill for that the compensation package I get. I'm making as much as my boyfriend, who has several years experience on me. My raise last year only keeps my salary on par with fresh-out-of-school-zero-years-experience hires.</p>
<p>If more firms compensated like yours does, Rick, the profession wouldn't have so many threads and conversations like this started about it...</p>