Re: #36
Texas and Washington engineering are much more difficult to get into that the campuses overall.
^ Yes. Not sure thing for UIUC or UT Austin engineering. And it is a 3.7 UW and ACT 36. An engineering degree, if he could keep his GPA up, would be really valuable if he wants to go onto law school and an excellent back up.
@SeanCO What is his class rank? You should try RPI. They can be very generous with merit aid for NMSF and love geographic diversity. My neighbor’s son had a lower GPA but a 36 and they gave him a lot of merit money.
thanks again to everyone who responded. I am still digesting the information …
@gearmom his district does not publish rankings; I estimate he’s around 10% (could be slightly better or worse). It is a tricky position; history shows 4.5 as the cut-off grade for many colleges.
I have another related question concerning OOS public schools, and I’ll ask you guys here instead of starting a new thread. Forgive me if this had been addressed (I tried searching the forum but did not get anything I was looking for).
So I was talking to a colleague the other day about kid’s school choices. He has a son who graduated from UC Berkeley a couple of years ago and is attending graduate school at CU. He proclaims that his son regretted choosing UCB over some smaller liberal arts colleges. He said because UCB is so huge, and professors so research-oriented, most undergraduate students got very little individual attention from the faculty, and yet the course work was also very tough; as a result his son did not get good grades and really suffered from it when applying for graduate school.
Many of you also pointed out that college GPA is the most important factor for future professional schools. I have no idea if, when taking the same course, it is harder to get an A in UC Berkeley than in CU Boulder (I would not be surprised if it is though, given the difference in admission standard, if nothing else). Is it? and if it is, what is the benefit of attending one of those mega schools (UCB/UCLA, UIUC, U MIch., etc.), as opposed to a lesser but still decent, albeit much smaller school?
I understand the teaching quality may also differ, That would have been enough when I attended college 1/4 century ago, when it was a privilege to be able to see/hear some famous professors. But today many top universities have their entire sets of courses posted online. So if not for personal interaction with the professors, being in the same room (with 200 other students as well) does not seem to make as much a difference any more. Does it?
Thanks,
Sean
It all depends on the student. Large schools like the UCs will have classes with 200-600 students, which will be all lecture. However, they will offer opportunities for students to get extra help and to talk to professors and/or TAs.
Smaller LACs will probably cap most classes at 40-60 students, with maybe a few exceptions. Professors will have a good sense of all or most students by the middle of the semester. It’s typically much easier for a student to grab the professor after class. Knowing the professor a little–at least having spoken to them once or twice–can make it easier, less intimidating for students to go to office hours and/or help sessions.
Some students are perfectly happy to attend large lecture classes and can thrive in those. Some will be very willing to go seek additional help in a class of 500. Others prefer some discussion and the feeling the professor knows them. Some are motivated by knowing the professor will notice if they are not in class.
It’s really a question for your kid. What will work best for them? Will they feel lost in a class of 500, or is that fine? Will they be frustrated they have to go to office hours to ask a question about material? Will they blow off a large class because no one will notice? Will they take advantage of the smaller class size to engage with the professor and the material in a more in-depth way? Or will they just blow off the smaller classes?
One great tip: for more challenging classes like chem and bio, it’s a great idea to arrange a tutor at the beginning of the semester as a way of trying to get ahead of the material in a pro-active way, rather than waiting until a student has had a disappointing test score. Also, it’s great to get to know professors at least a little at the beginning of the semester. They know much more where the student stands than the student realizes. That way, a professor can engage them and point them in the right direction if that is helpful.
One of mine attended a school with large class sizes. Another had about 45 at most in their freshman intro level classes. The latter was shocked about a month into school when one high school friend said they had almost 300 in one of their classes, the same one mine was taking. Another friend replied, well they had 600 in the same class. So there are real differences. It’s just a question of what works for yours, and what will be affordable. Good luck!
You can look at my post 28 which sort of addressed this issue:
At the undergraduate level, there’s no reason to go OOS since CU Boulder is such a good university, especially since he’s got a shot at Honors or Presidential Leadership… UNLESS the university he goes to has a definite “value-added” element (or unless you find a cheaper program of equal or better quality).
One such “value-added” element would be a unique track, or unique opportunities that match what he wants to study or is passionate about. Some may have downsides too (ie., HarveyMudd would surround him with accelerated math peers and allow him to push himself in math, while being able to study lots of traditionally liberal arts subjects and participate in Debate alongside the Claremont colleges… but grades there are typically very low, which wouldn’t be good for law school - it wouldn’t matter for Engineering grad school because Engineering grad programs all know what GPA means, but as intparent said, it’d be a killer for law school.
An example of “value-added” for HMC:
https://www.hmc.edu/mathematics/top-reasons-to-study-math-at-harvey-mudd/impressive-facts-about-the-department-of-mathematics/
https://www.math.hmc.edu/program/ams-notices-hmc.pdf
The advanced track at Northwestern (which doesn’t require to major in math)
http://www.math.northwestern.edu/undergraduate/menu/
One value-added element would be if he got into CS at UWashington (direct entry). Look for special strengths at the universities he’s interested in and make sure it matches his strengths. (No point in attending one of the best CS programs in the country if one hasn’t already shown promise in the field, no point in attending a college with a special math track if one isn’t able to get on the special track, etc.)
Another example is a university that offers something different - such as LACs, which have small class sizes emphasizing discussion/participation, where professors are hired not just for their research but for their ability to integrate undergraduates into their lab or research topic and expressly want to mentor undergrads, etc. Students have a personal advisor, whom they meet over lunch or a picnic during orientation, whom they meet again several times; they may “take their professor to lunch”, walk their dog or babysit their kids (some elite LACs take the mentorship idea very seriously and have a requirement that professors need to live near campus and some have “faculty in residence”, although elite universities also do that, such as Penn or Yale). Office hours are a given, and the professor may well tell someone to stop by. I know of professors who brought baked goods. Some LACs have honor codes, too, which allow students to take the exams without supervision, sometimes at whatever time they wish. Because the classes are small and depend on student participation, you can’t hide in the back and the workload can be quite heavier than at a large public university (at a top LAC, having an 80 page reading for next period would be normal in a first-year seminar, whereas at a university like CU Boulder, it’d typically be in the 20-30 page range; the number of papers and the number of times you can edit them until your writing significantly improves also depends on how many students are in the class, so that a “small” discussion section for composition might have 24-25 students at a large university, and 12-16 at a LAC, impacting the amount of writing and how often it is corrected/reviewed - you can check reading load and number of papers+rewrites by looking at syllabi as many are posted online nowadays. I still remember a horrified LAC professor hearing of a seminar that had more than 18 students - which seems high when 8-12 is “normal”. 40 would be a HUGE class. So, professors know the students and they know their majors very well.) In addition, most LACs are not as focused on spectator sports, although a sense of community may take students to support whatever team is playing, but there aren’t huge stadiums, pregames, tailgates, etc. Some students really want big football/basketball and don’t care about participating in class or writing a lot of papers so these students wouldn’t want the LAC experience. Depending on the LAC, they may have traditional Greek Life (Bucknell, Colgate), non traditional Greek Life (Beloit), no Greek life (Vassar, Grinnell, Haverford…) National LACs offer a very different experience from a large university, so if your child is interested and you can afford it, it is a good investment in terms of value-added. It’s especially good for premeds at collaborative LACs, students in majors where reading/writing/discussing are essential skills, and for students who will need good recommendations for grad schools.
All in all, of course, depends on what’s affordable.
As for your colleague and UCB: Many people consider that, unless you’re instate for UCs, you’re better off attending Berkeley for grad school, when instead of being in a large lecture hall with 700 people, you’ll actually benefit directly from the awesome researchers and their labs. For 60-65K, you pay private school price for a public university, so no matter how extraordinary it is for its residents and at the graduate level, you’re just subsidizing costs as an OOS undergrad and would get better value for money attending a topnotch private college (then returning to UCB for grad school!)
(All professors will be high-caliber regardless of college. The Nobel Prize winners don’t teach undergrads and for the others, since the competition for position is so stiff in academia, no one who’s not brilliant and accomplished has a shot.)
However, if a student gets admitted to Washington or UIUC but not to the desired engineering or CS major, the student should be aware that changing into the desired engineering or CS major after enrolling as an undeclared student is highly competitive. In this case, it could be a value-reduced situation since there is no assurance that the student will be able to major in the desired engineering or CS major.
Have you considered Oklahoma? It has almost the same rank as UC Boulder and is nearly free for NM. The scholars get lots of personal attention and small honors classes.
^not even close to free for NM. An OOS NM can expect to pay close to $16k per year.
Sorry to jack the thread if OP is not interested in OU, but @3scoutsmom reported a much lower COA for OU. Departmental can scholarships stack with the NM scholarship.
@ucbalumnus Your killing me, the OP’s son would be in the top 10% of applicants at both schools and we know the state flagships rely much more on stats than holistic admissions, no matter what they say. Finally he is OOS so paying OOS tuition, he is the IDEAL candidate for either university. Only schools that turn away more than 50% of the perfect ACT scores truly are reaches and we know which schools do that and none of them are public universities.
UIUC had 5000 applications for CS this year with only 400 accepted. 8%. The average ACT was 34-35. 8% is a lottery.
Duplicate
OP is interested in engineering and pre law at UT and UW, so not sure how CS came into this at UIUC. Even then I doubt their turning away too many 36 ACT’s
The university may want him, but the CS major may not have enough space for him, resulting in admission to the university but not in the CS major.
@CU123 Sorry about that. Engineering has a lower admit rate. When they are swamped with 35s and 36s other factors cone into play
@ucbalumnus Sorry to lead you down the garden path. Engineering not CS. Not that that is an acceptance improvement.
Yes, engineering majors at Washington, UIUC, or Texas are also much more competitive than the schools overall. There is a significant chance of getting into the university, but not into the engineering division or desired engineering major. (Of course, if pre-law is the main goal, and doing a non-engineering major as a pre-law student is acceptable, then that consolation prize may be acceptable.)
IMHO focus on the schools which fit a number of criteria - where son wants to study (and where the $$ makes sense) - have you visited schools in your area - flagship, other public, private; or any out of your area that were appealing? How likely is UG major going to change? Want to have the school be the right fit on entering, and if student desires to change major, able to stay at same school. Consider the 4 year merit situation.
How much is family willing/able to contribute - or are student loans going to come into play (for UG or professional school if that is the case - law school etc)?
Have the search wide enough but not wasting too much time - want to make sure to apply to enough of the right places so there is some choice as the senior (and family) sort out what is learned during the process, and not to miss deadlines looming regarding admission and merit/financial aid.
Some do spread sheet analysis. Sometimes people do well with info on paper, looking at the pros/cons of various schools and fit for student/family.
You want the student excited about the school for the ‘right’ reasons - will apply himself academically and do well towards a career/job.Looking at the various opportunities at the school in and out of the classroom and what the student will take advantage of.
In the end, want the decision to work out - don’t want ‘buyer’s remorse’ or find after a term or two that the college was not a good fit for the student. Also don’t want to totally overlook some good options.
Our goal for our two students was that they be able to support themselves after UG education. Both had merit at in-state public schools (one went to flagship, one went to the school where her program of study was very strong) and both were very happy with the total fit. 1st graduated April 2016 and 2nd with graduate May 2018.
Unless it is UMichigan or Berkeley, I don’t think it is worth it to go OOS.
I’m not sure even Michigan or Berkeley are worth going to for OOS.