Are adcoms truthful when discussing admission decisions with high school counselors?

Applying to College
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<p>being valedictorian doesn't hurt anyone, either......but kids who are that desperate usually convery it in their applications ;)</p>

<p>i think it's unfortunate that the prestige game has gotten so out of control in higher education...i chose the place where i work over several others precisely because it wasn't consumed by pursuing prestige like a lot of its "peer institutions". i attended a faculty meeting where the profs were talking about us news and world report...the school had dropped a couple spots that year and the consensus was: "we know we are doing a good job teaching our students - they tell us all the time how much they love learning here. who cares about the rankings?". i just fell in love with the place after hearing that conversation and feel lucky to be able to work where i do. is it the right place for everyone? no. but it is the right place for the students we admit...and that is, at the end of the day, my job: to find the kids in our applicant pool who will thrive at the institution. </p>

<p>what i hope every student understands is this: you will be admitted to the schools where you will have the best chance of succeeding, and the best place for you to love learning - the best place for you to be able to make the most of what a school can offer. if it's rit instead of mit, so be it. if it's cornell college instead of cornell university, so be it. if it's john brown university instead of brown university, you'll live...and you'll still have a great life!</p>

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<p>AdOfficer, I find your comments very intriguing and possibly helpful for parents still going through the process, and also to shine some light on my daughter's own experiences last year. I have some questions about lopsided candidates -- I'll use my daughter as an example, but really with the idea that it might help others put things in perspective (or not... depending on your take of the situation).</p>

<p>First of all, as to test scores -- I was intrigued by your comment that you might look more favorably at a student with lower SATs taking a tougher schedule than the student with the higher test scores who seems to be taking the easy route -- certainly it explains why my daughter did so well last year in college admissions despite weak scores. However, one question I have is how do you view scores that are really lopsided? My daughter had very strong English/writing scores (including a 33 English on the ACT) - but very weak math & science. Plus she had very inconsistent ACTs, so ended up submitting scores from 2 sessions because one score profile had peaks & valleys, the other was more even - so she was hoping the adcom would look at the highest subscore from each session. </p>

<p>I have another question/comment about course load. You commented that a kid who doesn't take calculus senior year is at a disadvantage at the type of college that takes less than 30% of its applicants -- well, my daughter is at Barnard and took NO math or lab science at all after 10th grade -- but she was a dancer at an arts high school, and she studied Russian extensively, both at her school and with a foreign exchange and other travel to Russia during her junior year. So I think it's fair to say that anyone would see my daughter as an artsy kid with a strong aptitude for languages, but very weak on math & science. Obviously they forgave her. (it wasn't just Barnard - she got into several other reach colleges -- with her profile just about everything was either a big reach or a definite safety). </p>

<p>We just kind of gave up last year on trying to make predictions because she just didn't "fit" anyone's profile -- but I am wondering if it is typical for the colleges to weigh the lopsided student mostly on the basis of consistency related to their strengths. I mean, I honestly don't think my daughter would have fared as well in college admissions if she had stayed home and stuck to a more traditional schedule ... even though I think interrupting her high school career to travel abroad would have been very risky if she had her heart set on a top college. But the question does come up here from time to time whether the student should pursue their area of passion or interest vs. taking the "most challenging" course load.</p>

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<p>"lopsided" kids are tricky...it is easier to make an argument for a student who is strong across the board than for a kid who has strengths in a few areas and difficiencies (relatively speaking) in others. however, students who are lopsided often times can fill a niche that a school is looking for. for example, i fought hard in early decision for a kid who was extremely talented artistically (in every medium - writing, visual art, voice, theater) and from an area we don't see a lot of kids from; she got in because i made the case that our art and theater departments are griping they don't have a enough kids and that this kid would contribute significantly to these departments and could still do the work in the sciences and math if she had to. </p>

<p>calmom, your daughter is at barnard...are you from california? that could have been a huge help to her. also, she is rather unique: a strong dancer with a background in russian...we don't see too many of those in our applicant pools. barnard is also very strong in the arts and humanities, thus perhaps the admissions committee there was convinced she was a good fit for them...also, she went to a performing arts high school and i would get excelled there as opposed to a more traditional high school where perhaps her dance talents would not have been cultivated...at my school, there would have been no way she would have gotten in without more science and math - we see kids from performing arts high schools still taking calculus and 3 lab sciences applying from california (an area we do well in) all the time. </p>

<p>if i'm being totally honest with you guys, well, i have to say that a lot of it is also the luck of the draw. i have a soft spot for students who have a strong affinity for foreign languages, visual and performing arts, and writing; others in my office only love students with strong math and science skills and big (2350+) testing...if you are the former and i'm out sick the day you pop up in committee, you might lose a vote...</p>

<p>regardless, we are usually looking for reasons to admit a student, not reasons to deny them. thus, special talents, skills, perspectives, and interests do stick out while softer testing isn't necessarily the only reason a student is denied admission. students who are the most successful in the admissions process, though, are the ones that take the most rigorous courses available to them AND indulge their passions or other interests at the same time.</p>

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<p>AdOfficer, with respect to your post 134:</p>

<p>Like calmom, I also have an artsy daughter. Math & science are quite challenging for her, although she has done well in some of the math & some of the science. I really believe in being (& studying) who/what you are inclined to, within the parameters of requirements. Actually, all of the disciplines have a way of fostering, indirectly, the others, so I am not opposed to mastery of fields other than one's favorites, or best fields.</p>

<p>For those with subject-area challenges -- let alone general learning challenges such as processing -- the teacher can make all the difference. (Spoken as a teacher myself.) And this subject has come up elsewhere on CC, by the students. "Science is my worst subject; science course [blank] is taught by the same bad teacher who taught me a diff. course in ___yr. So I don't want to take that Honors/AP course, even if I qualify, & even if I "should" take it." And that's a little different from taking "easy" courses, i.m.o. Teaching the principles poorly means that you are failing to provide a foundation for future learning in that area, & perhaps parallel or related areas.</p>

<p>This has affected my own D's choice of AP options. It can affect anyone in a small school (one teacher per subject class), & it can affect anyone going to a school where a whole department is weak -- such as science or math. When my older D was at the school, & the AP Calculus permissions were being handed out, even a few math whizzes were being denied entrance into the class. (Again, the math preparation was uneven.) From the point of view of the high school, and an admissions committee, well gee, the "challenging courses" were "offered," weren't they? yes and no. To some, not to everyone. And in many cases, it was not an indication of the student's lack of capability, but the teacher's, or the program/curriculum.</p>

<p>In many upper-level colleges, with demanding core curricula, it can be very important to be well grounded in advanced math & advanced science. But a core is not universal, even at Ivies. And as to my own very artistic younger D, I'd rather see her be the student & person she's meant to be, get a "C" in college math or science, and matriculate to a challenging U which is artistically her match, then struggle in a high school course to prove that she's taken "the most challenging courses possible."</p>

<p>I draw this out not for the sake of the personal story, but rather because I see lots of students take courses frankly that they shouldn't, & which diverts their attention from courses where they may reinforce or even discover who they truly are.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
if i'm being totally honest with you guys, well, i have to say that a lot of it is also the luck of the draw. i have a soft spot for students who have a strong affinity for foreign languages, visual and performing arts, and writing; others in my office only love students with strong math and science skills and big (2350+) testing...if you are the former and i'm out sick the day you pop up in committee, you might lose a vote...

[/quote]
This sounds just like what was in the book The Gatekeepers where if your strengths resonated with the adcom who drew your app it was a big leg up, and each of the adcoms profiled in the book had different preferences. One kid in the book had a miss because she had worked on social-justice issues and didn't mention much about it in her app because she thought it would be controversial; turned out the adcom who read her app shared her interests and she would have done much better had she mentioned them. Luck of the draw, I suppose ...</p>

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<p>epiphany...</p>

<p>i'm not advocating that students take courses they don't want to...on the contrary, i think students should pursue their own interests to the fullest extent they can. however, there are core courses - like ap english, calculus, us history, and a lab science - that do provide a very strong foundation for analytical and critical thinking that is required in college. believe me, i can see right through a kid who is only taking additional ap courses just because they are ap rather than because they are interested in the subject...but i'm not impressed by students who opt out of advanced classes to take drama just because drama is more important to them. yes, drama and music and art and human geography and dance and even basketweaving are all great - i certainly encourage students to take these classes. However, these classes should compliment english and history and foreign language and lab science and advanced math, not substitute them, as students attending selective colleges have to write, think, read, and speak critically and analytically using an interdisciplinary perspective based on these core courses. </p>

<p>again, i stress to you all that we know the high schools in our reading areas well, and if we don't, we do our homework before reading a student's file. in addition, most counselors are very forthcoming in their letters of recommendation about circumstances that have influenced a student's course selection; students are also quite forthcoming about this information in their interviews. thus, if i read or hear that a student has already had, say, the teacher who is teaching calculus in a previous year and feels the teacher did not address their personal learning needs, i take that in to consideration. if a school is known for its math and science curriculums but apparently has a weak english department, i take that in to consideration as well. i do not, however, condone a student deciding, for example, to take journalism over ap english or a vocal performance class over ap french just because they enjoy journalism or vocal more. if a student really does not want to take a course because of the teacher, i do expect that the student compensate for the missed class somehow (like doing an independent study or taking a course at a community college or other nearby high school). i also do not agree with schools that make extracurricular activities into classes - there are, for example, a lot of schools that make the school newspaper a class and offer it the same time ap english comp is offered...neither seems pedagologically advantageous to the students, especially those students looking to attend liberal arts institutions where they will be expected to examine things with an interdisciplinary perspective. </p>

<p>i do agree that teachers can make all the difference, but unfortunately most public schools are so crowded that it is hard for a teacher to address each individual need of each student. however, the kids who are proactive about getting the extra help they need after class do impress me because they obviously have the desire to understand the material better; this can be evidenced (and is often) in letters of recommendations from teachers and in interviews (i make it a point to always ask a student what they do if they are struggling with something); sometimes teachers are also very blunt about how difficult they are on students...grade inflation isn't only a problem in colleges nowadays, but also in high schools, and some teachers take it upon themselves to try to correct this...</p>

<p>this isn't directed towards anyone in particular here, but i am going to go out on a limb here and say something probably unpopular that i think is really important: there is a growing concern in my profession that many parents and students are blaming their teachers or schools when, in reality, the teachers and schools have done everything in their power to help out a student...a student who does not do well or struggles in a subject is not necessarily symptomatic of the quality of teaching the student (or others) is receiving....often times students complain about teachers in their interviews, yet when their applications arrive, they seem to be the only ones from their high school to have struggled with a particular teacher or they tell me they don't really seek out extra help.... i'm not saying that bad teachers don't exist, because they are out there, but somehow there seems to be no "average" students anymore on paper - every student (and their parents) believes they are a star. i cannot tell you the number of times i have heard from teachers or counselors about particular students who just aren't getting something because they aren't working hard enough, yet they blame the teacher or the school...there is a growing sense of entitlement amongst students and parents and it is alarming. i'm not saying that the student is always to blame for their weaknesses, but there seems to be more and more parents and students pointing fingers at teachers and schools when in many circumstances it is the student themselves impeding their learning. in fact, there is growing concern that more and more students are arriving on our campuses with very inflated credentials, namely because teachers are afraid to give students the grades their work actually merits...</p>

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<p>mike,</p>

<p>your reference to The Gatekeepers is a propos, however, please do not think that only one person reads an application and makes the ultimate decision on an application. remember in The Gatekeepers that every student's workcard went before the dean of admissions before the final decision was made; the deans are well aware of the biases in their staff members and are quite quick to check them by having others on staff read the application as well or by taking the officer's recommendations with a grain of salt. also, we are quite conscious of our own personal biases and usually check ourselves before doing our final evaluation of a student - to not do so would be unprofessional; if an officer does do this, they are usually chewed out in committee. this was also presented in the book. </p>

<p>remember that what was presented in The Gatekeepers was wesleyan's way of selecting their class - other schools do things very differently.</p>

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<p>AdOfficer: What about the student who HAS to take a 6th course - Religion - because it is a parochial school and therefore, cannot take the number of electives that other students may be able to. Is this a negative?</p>

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<p>AdOfficer - Yes - we are in California -- though there doesn't seem to be any shortage of Barnard students from the west coast -- I think about 10% of the class generally comes from California, and the school holds advising sessions for incoming students in LA and SF in the spring. </p>

<p>Also, while I recognize Barnard's strong focus on arts -- my d. ALSO got accepted at Chicago - where she also submitted a very humorous, rather flippant essay. (I am sure she made them laugh, but I don't think she dazzled them with her brilliance). The fat envelope in the spring from that bastion of intellectualism was quite a surprise.</p>

<p>Of course, it probably all came down to the language -- we knew going in that Russian departments at many top colleges are hurting for students, and ran some numbers in terms of department size & enrollment when targeting schools.

[quote]
..at my school, there would have been no way she would have gotten in without more science and math -

[/quote]
Then I guess it all has to do with targeting well -- because there were many other high end schools (mostly LACs) we found that looked like they were good possibilities, but my d. also limited her options by deciding she wanted a mid-to-large size school in an major urban area.

[quote]
regardless, we are usually looking for reasons to admit a student, not reasons to deny them.

[/quote]
That's what I figure did the trick -- there were lots of good reasons for a school to admit my d.... and some good reasons to deny her, but only one college, an Ivy, outright rejected her -- and this was among a very reach-heavy field. </p>

<p>Epiphany's post also ran true for us as well -- my d's geometry teacher in 9th grade was so bad that it wasn't funny -- she had an A in that class only because the curve was set ridiculously low (she once got an A+ on an exam with 29% correct -- and no, it was not a particularly difficult test). So AdOfficer - it's not necessarily "blaming" the school for a kid's shortcomings - I was really ticked off when my daughter had that grade and obviously wasn't even learning the basics of geometry. If my d. had been able to fit trig into her schedule senior year, I'm sure she would have gotten an A; I'm just not sure she would have learned much math. </p>

<p>In any case, she's doing well at college -- she has A's in the courses she took at Columbia this fall. And I've already scouted things out for her and figured out which are the "easy" courses she can get at college to fill her qualitative reasoning requirements while she goes about pursuing a humanities-focused major.</p>

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<p>AdOfficer, you're speaking to the choir when speaking to me (overall). As an educator I also see too much "entitlement" sometimes. The bad teaching I'm talking about was bad science teaching to Honors & science-capable students. The school has a habit of doubling teaches as coaches, with the latter more important than the former, when push comes to shove. I think it hasn't affected our graduates when it comes to college admissions, because of the (strong) reputation that the school has among colleges. But it has affected class placements & often GPA.</p>

<p>Neither of my d's has been active in h.s. journalism, but the school is nationally recognized in that regard. Because of that, Journalism was given academic status recently. However, it has never substituted for any required course, in any subject category. And most on the journalism staff are such good writers that they would qualify & want to take the AP Engl Comp. Journalism is a heavy-duty e.c. which additionally earns a grade.</p>

<p>One of the weaknesses in the aforementioned uneven math program is that there is no separate pre-calc course. Within the curriculum it is difficult to be prepared enough for Calculus at all, let alone AP Calc. Thus, although D#2 will graduate with 15 Honors & AP courses (most of which are definitely core), Calc will not be one of them. But I believe that various teachers there have enabled her to learn & apply analytical skills, esp. 2 of her science teachers. </p>

<p>Her big sister was exhorted by the school to advance to AP Calc BC in Sr. Yr., so that (in their words) her transcript "wouldn't look bad." However, we opposed them because she wanted to take advantage of different, more unusual course opportunities in her sr. yr. She did so, & luckily her admissions results were all positive. (Although I think I remember that she was so spooked out by the h.s. administration that she felt a need to "explain"/apologize on her apps to Ivies why she -- not a mathematically propelled student -- chose, LOL, in-depth seminars sr. yr, versus the "privilege" of the -BC promotion.)</p>

<p>You will get no argument from me that US History is essential. That's become clear, LOL, from reading CC.</p>

<p>Thanks for the reiteration of the part about the reading areas/knowledge of schools. (Because it came up a couple of times recently on CC.)</p>

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<p>Ad Officer,</p>

<p>Thanks for taking so much time to post on this forum. I found your comments about journalism vs. other courses (esp. foreign language) interesting.</p>

<p>My son stopped Spanish after Level 3 Honors in order to take journalism, which is required for both the online paper as well as print. His HS produces a national award-winning paper. At the time, he felt he was not getting enough writing assignments and that journalism would be better for him in the long run. (He's a prospective math major who loves writing.) If the journalism classes net him an editorial position, even though it's at the expense of a weighted GPA point (times three years), why would an admissions office view this as a problem? </p>

<p>For a kid who had always been totally into math/computers, going out for the newspaper staff was a huge surprise (and due in large part to a history teacher who lit a fire under him freshman year). He's now a passionate news hound and the experience has become an opportunity to develop leadership skills as well. (Don't worry -- he's also taking AP English Comp and has no worries on verbal scores.)</p>

<p>I'm also interested in hearing about how ad officers view high school courses that were taken in middle school. Our school figures them into the high school cumulative GPA, but I've always thought it strange that colleges might take courses my son took as a 10 year old 6th grader into account!</p>

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<p>I'd also like to thank Ad Officer for his/her comments.</p>

<p>I was chatting the other day with my HS's AP calculus teacher, a class my daughter opted not to take. The teacher told me she teaches the class assuming that everyone in there will be majoring in engineering or the hard sciences in college, and for that reason it was a good thing my daughter wasn't in there.</p>

<p>I don't know how a college's admissions office would know that. The guidance department puts enormous pressure on kids to take calculus, and kids who aren't math-oriented struggle in the class. If you don't take it, then the GC won't check off "most challenging curriculum." I understand that selective colleges want to see students taking calculus, but I don't agree with the logic that a kid who is not into engineering/hard science/math should be at a disadvantage. I suppose the same argument could be made for an engineering student being forced to take AP English, but I don't think the two situations are analagous.</p>

<p>The pros and cons of taking calculus is a common discussion on CC. I'd love to know your take on the issue, Ad Officer.</p>

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<p>sunshadow - for kids who go to parochial schools, we know you have to take religion classes, so don't sweat it...however, it isn't that uncommon to see students from parochial schools applying with 6 solids plus the religion course. </p>

<p>calmom - let me tell you (and everyone else) something - a genuine and funny essay will get you remembered and is much appreciated. i read a kid the other day who was pretty standard for us - valedictorian, 32+ ACT, varsity athlete, leadership, community service, etc... - there was nothing jumping out really. my colleagues came running into my office though about halfway through my read of his application because they thought i was having a breathing problem i was laughing so hard. his essay was so hilarious and in doing so revealed so much about him that i couldn't help but give him a nudge up because of it...he really stood out! will he ultimately get in? maybe not...but in committee his humor will be appreciated and possibly give him a bump he needs. however, so many kids try to be funny...and aren't. sounds like your daughter did a great job of choosing the places she was a fit for and let the officers get to know her well in her application...i always tell kids if you do your research, are honest about your chances, and represent yourself well (the real you), you probably won't be surprised in april. </p>

<p>epiphany - there's no doubt that some shady things happen in some classrooms - i especially love the teacher recommendations from teachers who double as coaches and write recs for kids on their teams who are in their classes - there's definitely a, um, bias in those...i know very well that journalism can be heavy duty at some high schools - sometimes cult-like, actually. it's great to see students delving into it and writing in different ways. however, there are a lot of schools that let kids take journalism instead of english their senior years...i'm not quite sure this is pedagologically a good move. is journalism a legitimate course? yes. is it ap english? no. the math curriculum at your daughters' high school, btw, sounds really bad...</p>

<p>believe me, i totally get what you all are saying about students taking courses they will actually get something out of rather than perhaps a calculus or extra ap science course or something else they might not get as much out of. i took 5 years of math in 4 years in high school to get to calculus senior year, even though i LOATHE math (no offense math lovers)...and i had a horrible teacher as well and, well, let's just say i got my lowest grade ever in that class. it did, however, expose me to a different framework of thinking and made me work harder than i ever thought i could. in that respect, i learned a lot by getting out of my comfort zone and this ultimately is one reason we like to see students get outside of their comfort zones and try to challenge themselves. </p>

<p>countingdown...
i'm not saying that taking journalism or other courses that might bring down a student's gpa because they aren't weighted is a bad thing...on the contrary, it's great that students stretch themselves and try new things. however, as mentioned earlier, there are a lot of schools that let kids substitute these classes for others, which is a bad move if the course isn't terribly rigorous. if the school has a nationally-recognized journalism program, then it's perhaps a little different as it's rather hardcore; however, at most schools, it's not a rigorous course...but we usually know what schools in our reading areas have the strong, serious journalism programs and which ones don't...as far as your question about courses in middle school, we usually only look at courses in the 10th-12th grade and sometimes 9th grade...if a kid is taking ap bc calculus in 10th grade (they're out there!!!), great...we'll simply assume they were excellerated in math early on because of their affinity for the discipline, which can certainly help.</p>

<p>sly_vt - we take the checks guidance counselors make on the school reports concerning a student's curriculum with a grain of salt...some counselors are overly generous with the "most demanding" checking while others are rather stingy with them. if a student is clearly an arts/humanities powerhouse and has taken other challenging courses and isn't interested in, say, engineering, math, or a science, not taking ap calculus isn't going to get a kid denied. i advocated hard for a kid i read in early decision who stopped math after honors precalculus and instead of ap calculus took 2 theater/theater production courses instead (which is what she's interested in majoring in). however, her writing was amazing, her grades in everything were stellar, and she did take an extremely rigorous courseload. and she was admitted (by one vote in committee, but she got in!). however, there are plenty of kids out there with no interest in math or science who are still taking ap calc and doing well in it...</p>

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<p>
[quote]
if a student is clearly an arts/humanities powerhouse and has taken other challenging courses and isn't interested in, say, engineering, math, or a science, not taking ap calculus isn't going to get a kid denied.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>AdOfficer, what if a student is clearly an math, engineering or computer science inclined student, should he/she still take the AP English instead of taking another AP science course? My son goes to a very rigorous private high school. His 11th and 12th grade English classes are as demanding as college level courses as cited by New York Times. The AP English course in his school is reserved for students who plan to take AP literature in 12th grade. I therefore wonder if he is better off to take 1 year of AP science in 12th grade than to take 1 semester of AP English in 12th grade? Please comment. Thank you.</p>

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<p>From adofficer: "i also do not agree with schools that make extracurricular activities into classes - there are, for example, a lot of schools that make the school newspaper a class and offer it the same time ap english comp is offered...neither seems pedagologically advantageous to the students."</p>

<p>I'm very glad to hear that admissions officers really do know the high schools and research them if they don't. The above is a pet peeve of mine. Our hs, for example, requires students involved in various EC's like the newspaper, student council, band, etc. to take those activities as classes. Imagine, student council as a class! Even to participate in the mock trial group or debate team, you are required to take a certain social studies class. The problem is that that particular class isn't AP. Thus, the really top social studies kids usually can't do mock trial or debate because they're taking AP US history and AP Euro instead. This system is very unfair to the elite college bound kids who are faced with wondering whether it would be better to take AP calculus or be student council president or editor-in-chief of the newspaper. It does allow for the less stellar students to have a shot at leadership, though.</p>

<p>Second problem at our hs is that all other school clubs meet right after school. There are none that meet in the evening. If you are an athlete, therefore, you can not easily belong to a club. While there are always those students who try to manage it and no doubt put on their college applications that they do, that means that they are either regularly missing their sports practices (impossible on most varsity teams or the student will no longer be varsity), or are regularly missing their club meetings (in which case their claim to membership is usually bogus).</p>

<p>The result? My son was a three season athlete who only took band class for 2 years and then had to drop it or else he couldn't fit in the AP lab science classes he needed. Consequently, last year during application season when I perused the EC lists of kids on CC, I nearly had a nervous breakdown worrying about my son's qualifications. There seemed to be so much emphasis placed on leadership roles in student organizations, especially on the state or national level. As an athlete, he didn't have a shot.</p>

<p>My D, who's now at the same HS, dared to attempt a music ensemble while being an athlete. S told her it wouldn't work, but she didn't believe him. Well, the first music performance on the group's schedule is on the very same day and very same time as the state championships for her sport. If she skips the concert, they'll never let her in the group again next year. (music is serious here) But she's the top distance runner for her team, so she can't exactly skip the track meet either. So when I see the EC lists of kids at other high schools I wonder if adcoms have any idea that such a list would be impossible (without lying or some special political connections) at our school.</p>

<p>PS- I should add that I'm aware that there are ways to pursue one's interests outside of school such as in community groups, but I do hope that adcoms realize that not every student has the means to do that as there are usually fees and transportation issues.</p>

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<p>t1388 -
it's great your child has identified his strengths, but ap english is quite important...you son will, after all, have to know how to write well for college. in addition, showing admissions officers that you can be a jack of all trades rather than simply a jack of only one or two is advantageous, especially when there are so many math/science-oriented kids applying to the most selective schools in the country and taking ap english, ap foreign languages, etc...unless you son is going to, say, apply only to engineering schools (and even they like to see strong verbal/writing skills), honors or ap english should be pursued.</p>

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<p>AdOfficer, Thank you for your advice. He will try to take the AP English in 12th grade.</p>

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<p>ADofficer, (I am using my child's screen name) Thank you for all the info. My child took Ap NSL, Ap World, Ap Biology, Ap Calculus AB and BC by the end of his junior year and is An AP scholar with honor (no sub score for Ap cal AB, BC) His senior year now he is taking Ap Physics C electric., mechanics, magneti. (Double period), Ap Stat, Ap Psyc.adv journalism and other honor classes and sports.gpa3.7/4.5 not stellar Sat. He goes to a public school in Md. The school gives the same weight for honors classes and Ap classes. Would Admission officers know these details among the pool of applicants?? What are his chances to get in to elite colleges? (His top choice is Harvard....
Thankyou</p>

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<p>whyivy, </p>

<p>challenging oneself with the kind of courses your son is taking is the most important thing academically. we are very much aware of how high schools weigh their gpa's and ranks (even though they all do it differently - arghhh!!). i can't really speculate on his chances at harvard or anywhere really (even my school) because he hasn't applied and there is way to much that goes in to making our decisions that it's really impossible to say anything with any kind of certainty. but i would suggest that, as an east coast student, he also look to the midwest and west coast...so many of the top northeast and mid-atlantic kids all apply to the same schools in those areas - diversifying the schools you apply to by geography is a good idea. there are plenty of kids who get denied from harvard, yale, brown, and penn who get in to stanford, pomona, grinnell, macalester, rice, and whitman from the east coast much like there are kids from the west coast who get denied from stanford, pomona, and whitman but get in to penn, brown, yale, and harvard. </p>

<p>also, there are a lot of excellent schools like bowdoin, bates, mount holyoke (not for your son, but just throwing it out there for others) who do not require the sat so if he is concerned about his scores, these might be worth a look. however, he should be searching for schools that are going to best meet his needs, compliment what he wants socially, and will give him the opportunities he needs to learn...many schools can do this, not just the "elites" :) best of luck.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I suppose the same argument could be made for an engineering student being forced to take AP English, but I don't think the two situations are analagous.

[/quote]

I am such a science kid and here is my point of view:
I HATE all humanities. Actually I do not hate the disciplines themselves but my classes because they are all about interpreting stuff. A history test does not ask about some historic facts; instead we are given a piece of source material and we are asked to interprete and evaluate it. In my German literature class (in Germany) it's all about interpreting, too. Give me a poem. I can summarize the obvious content, I can analyze the stylistic devices and I can tell you in which era the poem was written. But don't ask me to interprete the content. Unfortunately, the interpretation itself counts 50% of the grade of any test we take, and thus on my final grade for the class, too.
If it's unfair to make a non-science kid take Calc, it is unfair to make a science kid take humanities, too.</p>