Are colleges legally allowed...

Applying to College
21

<p>It would serve you best to critically look over your application package to see if you can find the answer yourself. Did you have a counselor help you define realistic safety, match and reach schools? Did you satisfy all curricular requirements for each college, as defined in their guidelines? If your school offered AP courses, did you take a variety and do well in them? If your school didn't offer a rigorous curriculum, did you take community college or online classes to further your interests? In my experience, the strength of curriculum trumps most other factors and from some of your other postings I think this may have been an issue. Did you take Math through Calc, 3-4 Sciences, 4 good English classes, 4 yrs of a Foreign Language, and 4 History/Social Science courses? Did you incorporate your curricular interests in ec activities? </p>

<p>What I'm trying to convey here is that sometimes the answer is right under our nose but those without good guidance before the process begins might not see it or understand. If your college results were not as you expected, it might be best for you to take a realistic look at your weakest area, work on that at a local college for a year or 2, and attempt a transfer at that time. Good luck, and try to look forward to what you can do now to achieve your goals rather than being bitter about any rejections.</p>

22

<p>Psionic:
you wrote:"If it's not a legal question, then how are lawsuits about racist / political / etc. rejections are started? Something tells me that they have to release the information, and I'll try to find a lawyer..."</p>

<p>Do you suspect your situation was somehow violated? Are you seeing a pattern at a particular school? Is this a public or private school? If it's a private school, you will face a HUGE uphill battle to get any info beyond what's already been given. </p>

<p>Because if it's only your own situation, you're going to have to prove "systematic" discrimination or unfairness. If it's your single anecdotal case, the school is within its rights to stonewall you with basically, "there were candidates who we accepted for subjective reasons" -- and you're done.</p>

<p>Dependent on the schools, we know that 90% rejections isn't out of line.</p>

23

<p>Thanks to everyone who helped. I am not being bitter about rejections, but, because of my background, I have a reason to think that there might have been an illegal political reason behind my rejections (or non-acceptances if wording bothers you, reader). This is why I am going to get a lawyer. The purpose of this topic was to get preliminary information, and it can now be closed.</p>

24

<p>Don't bother getting a lawyer if you think it's political "discrimination" that's what the college calls someone that doesnt fit they're schoo. Every school, that's right even Berkeley, has active political groups from the communist ones to the ultra conservative. Don't think your situation is anything new. Sorry.</p>

<p>Let me say again, don't bother getting a lawyer, all you'll be doing is wasting his time and your money.</p>

25

<p>I was not talking politics in my application; what I meant is, I suspect that my rejection may have had something to do with my background. As I said earlier, do not worry about me or my lawyer, and no further responses required.</p>

26

<p>PSIONIC - ANY college has the RIGHT to accept - or not - any applicant - for any of their reasons - and they do not have to specifically acknowledge any particular reason for their decision. A college acceptance is a priviledge - not an entitlement - for anyone.</p>

<p>I would question your motives - unless you have ABSOLUTE proof that you have - for some reason - been discriminated against - you will have difficulties pursuing any legal action - colleges are under no obligation to render non-acceptance information to you. I think you will be wasting your time otherwise.</p>

<p>Are you by chance an international - or of a race that is in abundance by chance?? You really need to consider all of your options before you decide to get a lawyer - you really may find that another option would be best for you.</p>

27

<p>Part of the problem colleges have, particularly very selective ones, is that there is often is NO reason for rejecting many applicants - it just happened that another applicant seemed to fit their class a bit better at the moment that the decision was being made. Or maybe it came down to a nearly random choice among several similar applicants.</p>

<p>At schools with rigid score cutoffs, it's a different story. But at schools like that reject eight or nine out of every ten applicants, explaining why one applicant got in and three (or nine) other highly qualified applicants didn't may be next to impossible. Admissions directors at top schools often state that they could form a class from their reject pile that is as qualified statistically as their admitted class.</p>

<p>Sometimes there MAY be an identifiable reason - a horrible recommendation, complete lack of non-academic ECs, etc., but getting the college to admit that is tough. Sometimes a guidance counselor can get some feedback from the school - have you tried that?</p>

28

<p>
[QUOTE]
ANY college has the RIGHT to accept - or not - any applicant - for any of their reasons - and they do not have to specifically acknowledge any particular reason for their decision.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>(about the bold part) really? even if the reason is not legal?</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
unless you have ABSOLUTE proof that you have

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>That is why I would like to attempt to get the information out of them. I have a right to try, don't I?</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Are you by chance an international - or of a race that is in abundance by chance?

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I am white and an international student. Why?</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Part of the problem colleges have, particularly very selective ones, is that there is often is NO reason for rejecting many applicants - it just happened that another applicant seemed to fit their class a bit better at the moment that the decision was being made. Or maybe it came down to a nearly random choice among several similar applicants.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Yes, I understand that. However, I would like to know whether the reason was space or something more specific. What I do not understand is why there is a problem with stating what the specific reason is, if there is any on file.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Sometimes a guidance counselor can get some feedback from the school - have you tried that?

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>No, I have not tried that, but I will. Thank you. :)</p>

29

<p>....................I am white and an international student. Why?......................</p>

<p>I have sensed that you are ^^ - and because your sense of entitlement amazes me. You are not entitled to know the exact reason for not being accepted - unless they want to volunteer it to you - which they haven't - there are many many reasons why a student is not accepted - as stated in several posts above - somehow or another you did not fit their need/mold for the upcoming class - it is really time for you to move on to the schools where you were accepted.</p>

<p>Rejection is not easily managed by some - tho it is a part of life - difficult I understand - may be a good idea to use this experience and grow from it - rather than to dwell on it - the decision was out of your hands - let it go</p>

30

<p>"ANY college has the RIGHT to accept - or not - any applicant - for any of their reasons - and they do not have to specifically acknowledge any particular reason for their decision."</p>

<p>"(about the bold part) really? even if the reason is not legal?"</p>

<p>Private Schools can do what ever the h-ll they want. Some religious schools make you declare Jesus as your savior if they want. All womens schools take just women. I could start a school and only accept African American, trans-gendered, quadruple legacies who score between 620 and 650 on the SAT if I so desired.</p>

31

<p>
[QUOTE]
You are not entitled to know the exact reason for not being accepted - unless they want to volunteer it to you - which they haven't - there are many many reasons why a student is not accepted - as stated in several posts above - somehow or another you did not fit their need/mold for the upcoming class - it is really time for you to move on to the schools where you were accepted.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>The logic I am basing my sense of entitlement on is that if the reasons for a particular rejection are not illegal, there is no point in not releasing them; then, if it is illegal... well, illegal reasons, if proven, are not allowed by law, but if there is no law that says that colleges have to release their reasons regardless of whether they are legal or not, there is a major flaw in the system, given that it does not advocate discrimination on any grounds.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
the decision was out of your hands - let it go

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I have already let it go. But I'm still curious. I have a right to be curious, correct? I also have a right to investigate. I am not saying I'll be successful because colleges, according to ya'll, have a right not to release the information, but as I said - it won't harm to try to get legal advice from a lawyer. Yes, it might turn out to be a waste of my time, but it is my time and I am free to use it the way I want.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Some religious schools make you declare Jesus as your savior if they want.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>That is only true if the school is private, and you signed an agreement to the "I, the undersigned, hereby agree to declare Jesus as my savior as long as I go to this school..." statement when you applied to the school. If you did not apply to the school and / or did not sign such agreement, the school cannot make you do anything. I do not understand, however, what does Jesus and whether or not some religious school can make you declare it as your savior has to do with anything.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I could start a school and only accept African American, trans-gendered, quadruple legacies who score between 620 and 650 on the SAT if I so desired.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>You cannot do that either. In the United States, just like you cannot open a female-only school and get away with it, you cannot open a school for people that meet any other criteria only, because if you would, someone knowledgeable would quickly file a lawsuit against you, and you would have to either close your school or open it up to everyone else. :)</p>

32

<p>"That is only true if the school is private, and you signed an agreement to the "I, the undersigned, hereby agree to declare Jesus as my savior as long as I go to this school..." statement when you applied to the school. If you did not apply to the school and / or did not sign such agreement, the school cannot make you do anything. I do not understand, however, what does Jesus and whether or not some religious school can make you declare it as your savior has to do with anything."</p>

<p>Harvard <em>Could</em> make you sign something saying ":I do so declare that HARVARD is my god and I will worship it as such" if they wanted too.</p>

<p>"That is only true if the school is private"</p>

<p>I am assuming your talking about private schools. If your talking about publics then I'm sorry.</p>

<p>"just like you cannot open a female-only school and get away with it"</p>

<p>You defiantly can. many schools are female only.</p>

33

<p>
[quote]
Some religious schools make you declare Jesus as your savior if they want.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They can also reject you because the senior pastor at your church didn't rank your involvement high enough. They can reject you because your maths teacher didn't rank you high enough in "Christian committment". They can reject you because the guidance counselor who by your school's definition you only go to if you have a problem doesn't think you tolerate others well. They can reject you because when they asked you about yourself in your interview your religion was the third thing you mentioned, not the first. </p>

<p>I am applying to schools where any one of these things can earn one a reject. Many people would read that and think, "Illegal! Discrimination!" But as a private university, they can openly reject students for just those reasons if they so desire.</p>

<p>PV, in saying a school can't open like that you are simply 100% wrong. There are thousands upon thousands of Christian, female, male, Jewish and Islam schools in the country. I can promise you that they are legal. If you honestly think that rejecting students on basis of religon or gender from these private institutions is illegal, it will be all your lawyer can do to not laugh in your face. Think about it. Thousands of people get rejected from these institutions every year. It's not a conspiracy. If it were illegal, we would know. Don't you think those thousands of people want reasons? Don't you think after those hundreds of lawsuits for reasons schools would start just giving up the reasons? You claim you don't think this, but you truly are acting like you are the only person ever to feel this way and do something about it. Trust us, if what you said was true, it would have been taken care of in the system by now, seeing as schools have been giving thousands of rejects without reasons since the early 1800s at least. </p>

<p>At least I get to know that you are not a product of the school system of my area. Because dozens of schools have gotten around the system and managed to open all-female schools at every level. How on earth did they manage to get away with that? Two logical conclusions: You are the only person ever to notice that it was illegal, and you should report them to the organizations they are registered with as all-female schools and inform them that they are in fact all-female schools; or, schools can reject people when they want.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In the United States, just like you cannot open a female-only school and get away with it, you cannot open a school for people that meet any other criteria only, because if you would, someone knowledgeable would quickly file a lawsuit against you,

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I just don't get what part of the fact that there are THOUSANDS of schools in the US like this that you don't understand. You CAN do it and get away with it, because it's legal. There have been Christian-only and female-only high schools since the 1700s in this country. </p>

<p>Troll? There can't honestly be anyone who thinks that people couldn't get away with opening a school in the US for female-only students.</p>

34

<p>The discrimination lawsuits are mainly brought based on statistical evidence, not on individual rejections. They claim that the only way that the admitted percentage of whichever protected class you're in can be so low is that the school engaged in illegal discrimination. That's how the suits are brought. And sometimes they're also brought simply to force the school to establish the reasons for the rejection. But even then, they don't have to say why they rejected the applicant. All they have to show is that they didn't use an improper criterion for that rejection.</p>

<p>The only real exception to that rule of which I am aware are the handicapped lawsuits. An applicant can easily allege that the school was unwilling to explore possible accommodations to allow the student to particpate successfully in college life. And even that is very difficult to prove.</p>

35

<p>They don't tell you why you were not accepted because they don't have the time. If they had to send out letters with reasons to all applicants you would have to start applying in your junior year.</p>

<p>Did you get accepted at any of your schools?</p>

36

<p>PSIONEC - as a 17 yo - you are incredibly mis-informed - and/or - niave!! - especially regarding your ''rights'' and ''entitlement'' - and the process of being accepted or rejected from a college - what you ''have to sign''. All private schools are not religion based. Private schools can definitely set their own requirements for admissions - and ooo yes - they can be all women LOL - not illegal by any means. Again - you are very misinformed regarding US colleges/universities - public or private.</p>

<p>ME thinks this is just a reaction to being rejected - and not a very mature one at that. You have no grounds to legally go after a school because you were rejected. You have admitted that you have moved on - so do so.</p>

<p>(Maybe you could enlighten us as to how you feel you have been discriminated against - specifically - you have been pretty vague in your explanation.)</p>

37

<p>Maybe you should read this thread........... .........
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=260920&highlight=suit+yale+rejection%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=260920&highlight=suit+yale+rejection&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It may enlighten you a bit.</p>

<p>Your best bet for some understanding the ''college accept/reject system'' is probably to talk to your GC - maybe they can enlighten you.</p>

38

<p>Just to be clear, Psionic, what EXACTLY (in your mind) constitutes an illegal form of reasoning behind a rejection?</p>

<p>It seems like you are under the impression that admissions decisions based on ethnicity and culture are absolutely illegal, when in fact they often play a large role in determining the distribution of the freshman class at a university.</p>

39

<p>"In the United States, just like you cannot open a female-only school and get away with it,"</p>

<p>HUH? Smith College, Wellesley, Scripps ... they are doing just fine.</p>

<p>You are not going to find a reputable lawyer to take this on and should be wary of any attorney who suggests otherwise. A lawsuit is not the solution to every perceived wrong or injustice. </p>

<p>I strongly encourage you to ask your guidance counselor to call the school to see if they can get any further information. Sometimes schools will share info with a guidance counselor. Other than that, you have no legal right to know the reasoning behind your admissions decision. You should also consider whether or not you might want to apply to the school(s) in question for grad school; making a big stink now would not help your cause should you apply to the same school for grad school.</p>

40

<p>As others have indicated, unless you can show systematic discrimination (and you suggest that your situation is fairly unique, so that doesn't seem likely), then you have virtually nothing. If you interviewed, the reason could be "We didn't like you." At some schools, the reason could be that you were *OVER*qualified and the school wanted to improve yield. At some schools, you can be rejected for the inability to pay full tuition (especially as an international student). You could've had a poor rec that you didn't know about. You could've had great stats, great recs, and great essays, and been subject to the applicant boom of 2007. You could have been systematically unlucky. And judging from older lists of schools you wanted to apply to, you just can't tell, because there wasn't a safety school (or anything close to it) listed among them. Yes, it's a flawed system, and not everyone comes through it happily, but hopefully you do enough research in advance to compensate for the risks.</p>

<p>Theoretically, no, a college has no real reason for withholding rejection info. But practically speaking, some schools might just have policies of refusing to give out such info. If every Berkeley applicant wanted to know why he was rejected, the admissions office would be shut down for weeks just answering phone calls. Related example: many schools refuse to share admissions decisions over the phone or email. They have the info. They don't mind letting you know the info. Not providing it via phone or email is just an official policy based on the fact that if they did allow it and everyone took advantage of it, major problems would ensue.</p>

<p>And if your application was so incredibly perfect that you're near positive it's this single specific background issue that's causing you trouble, then I have to wonder why you included such obviously touchy information? A random example: you'll read many posts on CC from people with histories of mental illness who are considering writing about their experiences in their personal statements. Overwhelmingly, the advice given is either don't, or do so veeeeery carefully, knowing that you're voluntarily giving out unnecessary and controversial info as part of a subjective judgment process. Schools can keep you out because you're a liability, too.</p>

<p>But yes, as you say, it's your time, your money, and you (and presumably your parents) are certainly free to do what you want with both of them. If your application really was evaluated unfairly, then best of luck to you. And if nothing comes of your legal efforts, then best of luck in improving your situation through other means.</p>