<p>The School of Fine Arts and the rest of CMU are a mismatched pair. The conservatories do not require the same academics for entrance or the same type of academic work from their students. Theater students take a class or two outside the department each semester–and that includes PE classes. The only GEs are basic writing and basic computer (a pass/fail course that you need to navigate the university). I’m sure there are some university conservatories that look for academic excellence but CMU is not one of them.</p>
<p>Acting Dad: absolutely right!</p>
<p>Sopra, I went through the same thing when I was your age, because I was raised very similarly to you. My parents were always angry at me because my high grades weren’t as high as they wanted them to be. And so I got the feeling that my grades were too low to get into college, and so I gave up. It was several years before I got the courage to go back and try again at education.</p>
<p>It really didn’t occur to me that there were lots of people who had grades EVEN WORSE than mine that will still going off to college, and having wonderful lives. As people have been saying here, there are a lot of college programs that would be very excited to have someone with a 3.0 high school GPA. And not just theatre programs. Is theatre really your main passion, or are you talking about theatre because you think you can’t study the subject you are really interested in?</p>
<p>I also wouldn’t put TOO much stock in this talk about “personal growth”. A lot of college students are VERY immature, but this doesn’t seem to have stopped them getting into college. Maybe the “personal growth” you need is just to get away from the people who are demanding you get a 4.0 GPA, and learn more about what the world will REALLY expect of you.</p>
<p>If you are REALLY interested in these programs that emphasize the audition rather than high school grades, you need start working NOW to make sure that you will be able to deliver an INCREDIBLE audition when the time comes. Again, why are you still taking math when you don’t like math and don’t want to be an engineer (maybe there is a good reason, I just don’t know it)? Can you drop it and take an acting class (or whatever you are interested in) instead?</p>
<p>I also suspect that there are other educational options that you may not even know about, and perhaps the people in your life “disapprove” of and so haven’t told you about.</p>
<p>A lot of the parents here are professional overachievers like your parents. They can be very uncomforatable with some of the things I say. These same people get very upset when they see that many of the OTHER kids, the ones who are NOT overachievers, still get admitted to really good college programs. The parents here will do just about anything to give their kid any little edge. If their kid has a 99% chance of getting into college, they will work their rear ends off to raise that chance to 99.1%. Which is almost certainly just overkill.</p>
<p>Again–</p>
<p>Take some time.</p>
<p>Really think about where you want to be in about ten years.</p>
<p>Find out about people who right now are where you want to be in ten years.</p>
<p>Find out how they got there.</p>
<p>I am pretty sure you will find out that they did not have 4.0 GPAs in high school. And that they got there by doing something completely different from what your parents are telling you to do.</p>
<p>KEVP</p>
<p>The discussion about grades raises why it is so critical to carefully comprise the list of schools to which you are applying and match their admissions criteria and process to the assets you bring to the table. Take the advice of katmt, an “insider” who knows the score. And keep in mind that at those schools where academics count for admissions, such as NYU, BU, Emerson, PSU, UMich, Northwestern and many others, it doesn’t matter what the theatre faculty think about your talent if you can’t get past the academic admissions criteria. So investigate the schools you are considering to fully understand the nature and requirements of their admissions process and choose your schools from a well informed basis.</p>
<p>Lots of BFA programs are easy-going when it comes to grades. However, good grades show committment. I am not saying anything against you in particular, but if someone has a “I don’t care” attitude about grades, then sometimes that can reflect on an individual’s character. I’m not judging you. A 3.0 is fine, but I would keep that in the back of your mind. Always do your absolute best in school. If you can’t show committment towards everything, even things you are not passionate about, what makes you think you can show the committment needed for a rigorous BFA program? Once again though, a 3.0 is definitely good enough to go into a BFA program. :)</p>
<p>Remember, all these programs are going to want intelligent actors, actors who are interested in learning about the world, in reading widely, and in applying that intelligence to their craft. A ten-minute audition is not enough to show if you’re smart or not. Your transcript, test scores, and application essays are going to be an important part of your picture.</p>
<p>and to the OP, you do need to take the basic subjects: math, science, history english and a language to get into most colleges even the BFAs. If you want a high school diploma you need to pass a certain amount of these courses whether you like them or not. I don’t remember who the poster is but someone got accepted to an acting program but I think rejected or deferred for a semester academically because he/she did not have the requisite units of a language. We take these courses because college admissions requires them. Actors should have the capacity to understand the basics of general liberal arts topics to be versatile and conversant in the language of the roles you will be playing. If you are cast in a lot of the forensic, medical shows, the educational documentaries new experimental plays that are written about politics and scientific inventions. You need to have the basic foundation in a variety of topics to do your background research to be a believable character=an intelligent actor. and then there is that offside chance that you take a subject that you didn’t think you liked but wind up realizing that it strikes a chord of interest. And then comes the basic premise that certain level math classes are prerequisites for other classes. Take AP Psychology or college psychology for instance, you can’t take the course in many school districts unless you’ve taken biology which you can’t take unless you’ve taken certain levels of math. Sopra, I find it very impressive that you are only a sophomore in high school but are now taking a serious look at your options for post high school and how you are going to get there. Maybe your parents don’t like the end results in your report card, but you are far more aware and mature than a lot of the kids with the 4.0s that are just being driven and directed by their parents. Keep up the conversation we are here if there is some way we can assist you.</p>
<p>Heres the reality - some of the smartest, most creative people who think outside the box, do not do well in school, in fact, it has never been my experience to meet a truly innovative thinker who does well in school (maybe its just public school) but since there is no real encouragement for creativity in public schools, what you end up with is students who either play the system well and comply or those who are bullied by their tiger parents. That is the reality that the parents here don’t want to acknowledge.</p>
<p>Prodesse - I will have to disagree with you a bit. If there’s an interview after an audition, you can show “who” you are. And when they ask you about what you’re looking for in a school or similar questions, it’s easy to know if the applicant is committed, distinguished and determined. And smart! Your choice of words matter. Your choice of monologues matter. And your emotional maturity also matters.</p>
<p>The essay is important to see if you’re ‘intelligent’, the test scores/transcript? Not so much. Experienced people know that grades usually don’t mean much and it just proves that you can memorize information a lot faster.</p>
<p>I have terrible grades for the American standard. If I were to ‘translate’ my transcript, I would have pretty much all C’s. But, I HAD to study math, Portuguese, English, Spanish, world history, Brazilian history, biology, physics, chemistry, sociology, philosophy, geography, arts and physical education. And I also speak German. I had very demanding classes and got impressive scores considering I had to study all of that. But still, when admissions people see my grades they’re not gonna be impressed at all. That doesn’t mean that I’m not an intelligent actor.</p>
<p>Most of the smartest people I know failed some classes in high school, dropped out of college or studied just enough to pass. And most of those people are artists. Not everyone, especially the ones with a different mindset, can adapt to the classic high school education system. That doesn’t mean they’re not smart.</p>
<p>EDIT: Sillymoms said it all :)</p>
<p>Milkshakespeare, my point was that you need to have something to show you are intelligent, and you can’t count on getting the opportunity at your audition. For this type of program you aren’t expected to have the whole “package” of 4.0 GPA, 2400 SAT scores, and every possible AP credit. But if your overall admission packet makes you look thick as a brick, you’re in trouble. </p>
<p>Grades don’t mean much but memorization skills? Sometimes, but in acting, you need to have great memorization skills!</p>
<p>My son has mediocre grades and great test scores, and although smart people can get middling test scores, high scores are a good indicator of intelligence, so for many of the BFA programs he’s OK. You have a challenging curriculum and a command of languages seldom seen in this country, and good test scores, so you’re in good shape. But if an applicant has poor grades, poor test scores, and a great audition, there are going to be questions. And at that point, a really great essay can mean a lot.</p>
<p>Of course, intelligence, commitment, and just plain hard work are all important to conservatories–but there are different ways of showing those things. If you have been acting, or sketching for the tech kids, since you could speak or hold a pencil, it shows passion and commitment. If you’ve had some success in those areas, it shows intelligence and talent. And if you can do those things AND stay in school, it shows hard work. Enough said?</p>
<p>Having been through this three times (art school, music conservatory, and acting) with my three younger kids, and having done a lot of research, I can tell you that (with exceptions for non-auditioned schools like Northwestern and possibly, although I’m not 100% convinced) there are two reasons why the academic portion of high school might matter: </p>
<p>1) Some programs exist within a larger university that may give academic merit scholarships. That could save you a lot of money.
2) At some programs (but not all!) you can use AP credits to knock off gen ed requirements. </p>
<p>As for memorization skills-- actors and musicians have them or they’re not going to be able to compete at a high level anyway.</p>
<p>It’s your artistic audition that will get you into the program. Some programs (Rutgers comes to mind) don’t even want a transcript until after you are accepted.</p>
<p>Just a note regarding Rutgers’ policies, as per glassharmonica’s comment: Rutgers asks for self-reported grades on the university application. This is true for all divisions, not merely Mason Gross. Once a student is accepted, and decides to go there, they must submit the original transcript. If there are discrepancies, Rutgers reserves the right to renege. Anybody interested in Mason Gross has to submit a Rutgers application. It’s a huge university, and that’s why they do not want to see recommendations or individual transcripts. Other colleges within the university place a much greater emphasis on grades and test scores. The same application may be used for up to three divisions of Rutgers, for a single fee, which is why it makes great sense for Mason Gross applicants to also apply to the College of Arts & Sciences at Rutgers. In fact (at least last year), the MGSA admissions site explicitly recommends applying to CAS.</p>
<p>My son can memorize a play in 24 hours, play a song by ear, master blocking on demand but taking a science or history test confounds him. He can write a play, a poem, a short story but a research paper is a different animal. His skills will be great for his future, were not so useful in high school!!!</p>
<p>I agree that memorization skills are useful, although with hard work anyone can memorize stuff. I met an actor once who had serious learning disabilities, but he was so committed that he spent the whole night memorizing his lines (even though he would sometimes be late to class in the morning).</p>
<p>My point was that if you only have your audition to show that you’re a smart actor, than make the best of it. Even if you have to do some name-dropping during your interview.</p>
<p>BUT you need to carefully pick the schools that care less about grades. Some schools, as everyone said above, care immensely about grades. My last post was not about those schools.</p>
<p>There seems to be a wide wide gap between the curriculum offered at acting conservatory programs (and that seems to including the CMU acting and M/T BFA from their catalog) vs other college BFAs vs performance-heavy BAs at many colleges. It would seem likely that those programs that have no other required academic courses (like history of theatre, for example) beside training will not look at HS academics in the same way as those that do expect college level studies in addition to the theatre work.</p>
<p>As has been noted time and again on this forum, the differences between different the various BFAs, and between BFAs and BAs, and between different BAs can make our heads spin. Oy!! </p>
<p>Each young adult may have strengths that pull him toward one or another of these sorts of experiences. And while my personal thoughts may well differ from some parents/students who post here and agree more with others, what I do not hope to read here among us artistic theatre folk is name calling. I was disturbed by heated posts above. There are many people who are reading this forum (many who never post) and they can be trusted to read many points of view and weigh each position to see if it applies to themselves without being warned off. </p>
<p>The question of how academically accomplished a theatre professional may need to be, and the value of a strong core college education to such a talented individual is an interesting debate topic, and a complicated one. I suggest we try to avoid that here. Creativity is its own kind of fabulous intelligence and yet, I doubt there is one type of creative person that is “better” than any other and each individual’s differentiating interests, intellectual curiosity, or expertise makes them unique.</p>
<p>Everything seems to be so overwhelming! But what I can gather is that if I want to get into any college program, doing my best in school couldn’t hurt. Although I should be doing that anyway, haha.</p>
<p>So are talent and hard work really all one needs to be accepted into a theatre program? Or are there other factors that go into it, too?</p>
<p>^ There’s also perceived “fit” from the side of the program plus many will be looking to put together an ensemble of assorted types. This is where grades and test scores may become a concern when considering two otherwise equally talented prospectives like KatMT suggested. </p>
<p>Have things changed, or is it still JUNIOR year that counts the most for college admissions? Just get the grades up, do as best you can on the standardized tests and you should be fine with most BFAs other than maybe USC and Tisch.</p>
<p>Academic prowess and artistic ability are certainly not mutually exclusive, but they’re not necessarily dependent upon each other either. It seems to be mainly non-actors who don’t get that artistic talent is like a form of intelligence unto itself that can’t be measured by standardized testing or the cookie cutter standards of conventional academia. I’d swear some of the best actors I know must suffer from dyscalulia … </p>
<p>In a sense, it seems to be like that with a lot of things. I remember when I was in 10th grade and had to do a career day presentation. It was still my mom’s expectation that I’d become a lawyer so I decided to interview one of the local roosters who had a long string of multi-million dollar victories under his belt. He kind of smirked when I told him I was an A student and quipped, “The A students make the professors, the B students make the judges and the C students make the money.” :)</p>
<p>I am glad to see that I am not standing alone against all the overachieving parents, and there are at least some parents (and others) here that have views similar to mine.</p>
<p>I think you will find that to be succesful in life, in ANY field, will call upon talent and hard work.</p>
<p>My concern is that this hard work needs to be put into things that are going to help you achieve your goals. Maybe this means working hard at school. Or maybe it means doing the minimum to get by at school and then saving your BEST efforts for other activities that will better get you where you want to be. I keep returning to this math class with the conic sections. Why are you taking it? Does your school really require you to take this class in order to graduate, or do they also give high school diplomas to people who haven’t taken this class? There are some folks who want to be engineers, who probably do need this class and should take it and put their best into it, but if that is not your dream, maybe you should be putting your energy into something else.</p>
<p>I think maybe your parents have trained you to see college as an end in itself. But it really shouldn’t be, it should be a stepping stone to your REAL goal. Figure out what your real goal is, then figure out what degree you need to get there. Find out if you really NEED a college degree, or whether there are other options. For that matter, do you need a high school diploma? Maybe you do, but for myself I don’t have a high school diploma and now I am a criminal lawyer.</p>
<p>After I dropped out of high school, it took me a LONG time to figure out how to succeed at college. Eventually, I figured out what my learning style was, and found a college that taught the way that I learned. My undergraduate degree is from a college that the overachieving parents here don’t approve of, but it worked for me. And that BA got me into Law School.</p>
<p>There are many, many, many, many different options. Different paths. You have to find the one that is right for you.</p>
<p>I will comment on two facts.
- That math class. To graduate from most public high schools today most students need to have at a very minimum 3 math classes, lets remember the original poster is a sophomore. He/she needs to take a math course (maybe not an honors math course). Similarly there are minimum requirements for science, history, language etc etc. I am aware that many public high schools are now requiring 4 math classes. I am also aware that the rules are changing in some public universities that 4 years of high school math are required for admission. So in order for some of these applicants who do not have the highest grades for merit awards and do not pass that poorest threshold for financial aid, will not get admitted to their lowest price alternative: their public universities if they do not have those 4 (insert adjective) math classes.</p>
<ol>
<li>I am aware that many BFA conservatory like programs, that are not considered the top 5 prestigious acting programs, are requiring to see the first and second quarter grades to academically accept the student and have withheld artistic and academic decisions until the receipt of such grades. </li>
</ol>
<p>These students in this section of CC, MT or Acting applicants are in a unique position where their talent will help them get into college with lower GPAs. But each college program does have their minimum even if it is based on a hollistic approach so we will never really know what that minimum number is and I don’t think any parent here really wants to encourage anyone to test that. I think we can all agree that if all things are equal talent wise, that student who has the 3.8/4.0 GPA may not only get that last spot in the class but may also get a hefty scholarship. Thus motivation to encourage our student readers to continue to try to progress academically even if they don’t like the class.</p>
<p>I think we can all agree that if a student’s lifestyle leads him/her to remain in the mainstream of public high school that one should try hard to at least achieve a 3.0 GPA or at least to show progressive improvement until graduation, if one’s goal is to attend any 4 year college program if only to provide that student with options including transfer options. As long as we have students who have that chance to improve their GPA, who are in a public high school environment and not an alternative type of high school, the GPA is one indicia of comparison for admission. If they are not liking a course such as math or history, they should make good choices and not take honors and AP levels but take a level that they can realistically succeed in.</p>
<p>Lets all keep in mind that most of us posting are parents and many who are reading are freshman and sophomores in high school. I respect that many people have succeeded with rewarding and successful careers having taken different paths but if it is at all possible, we want to encourage our high school students who don’t have a multitude of alternative options in high school.</p>