Are conservatories concerned with grades?

College Majors Theater/Drama Majors
41

<p>The answer is that some do and some don’t. Juilliard when my son applied did not even want transcripts. When accepted there, a high school diploma or other proof of high school equivalency was required but they truly did not care. NYU Tisch made it very clear that grades were an integral part of the picture. So you have two extremes here. At Michigan, you had to be cleared academically, before you were scheduled an audition. The GPA and standards may not be as high as for getting into other parts of the school, but they did have this system in place where you literally could not get your foot in the door to show your stuff until your academic credentials were vetted.</p>

<p>But things can and do change over time. I suggest you call each school and outright ask, as this is an internet board, and, as I said, what may have worked even a year ago could no longer be the case when you apply.</p>

42

<p>Absolutely. It is never going to hurt to do the best that you can do. I wish that my intelligent daughter worked harder at school. There is no doubt that she is smart. Her test scores – in reading and writing – are in the top percentiles. She always has her nose in a book. Alas, they are not school books. Math and science are just not interesting to her. However, if she is ever cast in Grays Anatomy, I’m sure she’ll be able to memorize the terminology just fine - her vocabulary is extensive.</p>

<p>My daughter is a junior, so we are facing the reality of limiting places she will apply because of her GPA. This is definitely disheartening, although luckily, none of those top academic schools were on her “dream” list any way. It would be nice if we would be able to think that she might get academic money – but again, she has limited herself that way.
I am not a person who thinks that grades define who is “smart” and it offends me greatly when that term is equated only with a high GPA. But your GPA can ease one area of your mind when applying for schools and allow you to really focus on your auditions. </p>

<p>So, do the best you can do. I don’t think it’s necessary to make yourself crazy and take Honors PE and Honors Study Hall so you’ll have a 5.0, but you and your parents will have more peace of mind the closer to a 4.0 you are. :)</p>

43

<p>When people say grades don’t matter I don’t think (or didn’t think) that anyone meant you could flunk out of high school and not worry about it. I was pretty discouraged to find out how little grades mattered for admission to a BFA program at most places. But they do matter to my safety school which I really like alot better than a whole bunch of other programs even if they have an audition. But I was thinking about the difference between a 3.5 and 4.0. That doesn’t seem to matter so much and it surprised me since it is college, after all.</p>

44

<p>I really agree here with the few posters that say that a high GPA does not equate with intelligence. I think there is a lot to be said for creativity and out of the box thinking that does not shine in HS AT ALL! HS is all about diligence more than anything. One of my boys would get A’s on all of his tests but just cold not bring himself to do the crazy busy work that HS can sometimes have… so he ended up with a B+ average. So be it… he is wicked smart and I know he will be successful at whatever he chooses to do. I have encouraged my Junior who is considering BFA programs to get the best grades as he can because it is nice to have as many doors open to you as possible… and I do think that some of the BFA programs might like that he has taken AP Latin and Lit. I have to say that it can be VERY stressful and demanding to take these classes, get good grades…AND be committed to acting…as my DS staggered out of the house this morning at 4am to drive to school to study before school started because he had his dress rehearsal last night till late. It is not easy in any way.</p>

45

<p>I’m pretty sure cptofthehouse is right about Juilliard not requiring transcripts until after admission. I should have used them as an example instead of Mason Gross in my earlier post. I would argue that students headed for programs like Juilliard should concentrate on learning as much as possible about the world while they in high school rather than racking up high scores and grades, because opportunities for further liberal arts-style education are limited. (To be specific, the Columbia exchange is not available at all for theater students.) I have 3 daughters currently in college; the one who goes to Juilliard is a music student, and eligible for the exchange, but scheduling is so difficult that she has only been able to roster one class over three years.</p>

<p>As for the rest of the topic, I don’t believe anyone is arguing that one should blow off high school, but I do think that there is unproductive tendency for us middle class Americans to over-focus on grades and scores (fed, of course, by the frenzied business of college rankings…) </p>

<p>It is also understandable that folks who worked so earnestly to achieve (and have their kids achieve) pluperfect grades and scores in high school should be frustrated to be learn that much of that work was not quite relevant to their current college admissions goals. (This, in the case of conservatory-style admissions.) </p>

<p>But I have three points: </p>

<p>1.For all the talk of grades and scores, why do we so rarely speak of what is actually learned during the high school years? Grades and scores are superficial markers that indicate ability to… get good grades and scores. I would argue that, in the long run, actors and other theater professionals need a knowledge of the world-- of human culture, history, science, and need to have open and curious minds. Rarely is depth of knowledge, or creativity, or critical thinking measured in these tests. (See below.)</p>

<p>

</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What makes a person successful? (See above.) In FBF’s pithy quote, the local rooster clearly felt that the C students were successful. I would argue that, within this limited example, each is successful within his/her own definition-- the “professor class” is not after money. And where do the artists fit into this equation? I believe that artists (theater and otherwise) need to be open, curious, and educated about the world. </p></li>
<li><p>I don’t always agree with TheRealKEVP, but I think he is on the mark stating that middle-class society has been trained to see college as an end in itself (and this argument can be extrapolated in a few directions, most easily towards the horrifying student loan crisis.) </p></li>
</ol>

<p>I grew up a high-grade achiever, a good girl in uniform and kneesocks, who wanted to please parents and teachers, who jumped through hoops, and netted small rewards. Without much thought on the matter, when I began my parenting life, I expected my kids to do the same – why wouldn’t they? But a few challenging school situations (beginning about 20 years ago) forced me to rethink my kids’ educational paths and to facilitate what were considered bold, even crazy moves for them. I took a lot of criticism, both to my face and behind my back, because my four kids were in and out of schools, progressive, private, experimental, public. We did some radical unschooling, public academic magnet schools, and everything in between. We had tutors; we did intensive arts training-- everything child-led; I was merely the facilitator. My oldest, a very quirky kid, left formal school at age 11 because she was an intellectual and social misfit (she did take numerous college courses a la carte from age 13) and went to her first-choice college where she majored in philosophy and English-- no longer a misfit, since she had “found her tribe”. Today she is a theater entrepreneur. She has a diploma from a (so-called) top-three liberal arts college but, like KEVP, no high school diploma. Dealing with her college admissions process in 2004 I learned that academically competitive colleges are quite interested in so-called homeschoolers who demonstrate depth and passion, and that a quirky resume is not an impediment. Dealing with her issues gave me the courage to buck the status quo (and further shock friends and family) when it came to my other kids’ choices. </p>

<p>I’m no innovator, and if I had not been forced to deal with a challenging kid years ago, or if we had lived in a wealthier school district or had the cash to send them all to private high schools, then things would have been different. I did not enjoy being criticized by well-meaning friends and family-- but so far my kids have done just as well or better than their peers who remained in place. High school is not the zenith of one’s life-- it’s just a blip. My four kids all went on to their first choice colleges, despite their nonconformist high school careers. Although, as they say, all that and $5 will get them a latte at Starbucks. They need to growing and thinking and learning, and to make bold choices, and to work hard if they are going to succeed. </p>

<p>Okay, I lied; I have a 4th point. </p>

<ol>
<li>I teach in a university that is classified as “most selective”. My students are industrious and smart, and they have worked hard to get where they are. A lot of my work with them boils down to helping them unlearn the narrow and limiting conventions of writing and thinking that brought them to this place. Which they do-- and it is beautiful to watch their minds opening like flowers.</li>
</ol>

46

<p>Thanks GH – best post in the thread!</p>

<p>My daughter desparately needed exactly what you did for your kids. I realized it too late in her education to make a difference and, as between my wife and I, I’m the one who would have had to set this up and it would been near impossible for me to balance that obligation with my unpredictable life of a patent litigator. So we have suffered through two very miserable years for her last two years in public high school.</p>

47

<p>My D took many AP classes ( honestly to escape the kids who did not want to learn in HS). She managed to pull off a B+ GPA. She has already received several admissions and merit scholarships. Unfortunately, her top choice has sent a scholarship that is not enough to put the school within our budget and we most likely will not qualify for any aid.</p>

<p>My D looked at me last night and muttered, “Why didn’t you make me work harder in HS for better grades?” It finally sank in that although admission to MT is very selective and talent matters most there, without the GPA/SAT - the money may not be there to attend the school she was so blessed to be accepted to.</p>

48

<p>MTDancerMom - I am sure you did as much as you could to encourage your daughter to work hard in high school, what she needed to learn (as my son does, as my daughter has) is that THEY need to want to work hard. I have a feeling your daughter has had her light bulb moment… My daughter has not missed Dean’s List once in college. She never made honor roll in high school because math always sank her. And science…</p>

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<p>GH… absolutely LOVED your post:))…as always:)</p>

<p>MT… my DS12 was also a B+ student who could of most definitely worked harder. He did end up at the perfect for school for him( and it definitely was not his first choice until the very end of the game), in which he also received a substantial merit scholarship. So I have faith that it will all work out in the end. </p>

<p>Photomom… my DS 12 also had a light bulb moment and it tool place on a campus tour of Dartmouth. When the tour was over he was literally drooling over this school and how perfect it was in everyway. He turned to me and said, " I get it now, I should have listened to you and turned in my homework so all the B+'s would have been A’s"…sigh.</p>

50

<p>It sounds like glassharmonica might be a fan of [John</a> Holt](<a href=“John Holt, unschooling, homeschooling, Teach Your Own, Hotels”>John Holt, unschooling, homeschooling, Teach Your Own, Hotels) and possibly even [John[/url</a>] T. [url=&lt;a href=“Why Schools Don't Educate - The Natural Child Project”&gt;http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/john_gatto.html&lt;/a&gt;] Gatto.](<a href=“http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html]John[/url”>The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher, by John Taylor Gatto) :slight_smile: I’ve sometimes wondered how other professional educators might feel about them. My experience of having been a student in the public school systems of four different states before transferring to an Art school in 11th grade suggests Gatto at least to some degree nailed it. As I perceived it at the time, it was a lot like what sillymoms described. Just play the system and keep your head down 'til time to regurgitate. I guess I was born lucky to have been a quick study, so I at least had some time to get to other things. A lot of very talented artistic people are not, however, and even the fluorescent lighting with which the powers that be tend to flood these “learning environments” can make their compulsory government time feel like a torture chamber. I’m not so sure I buy into the conspiracy theories about these places literally being designed to create easily controlled automatons who readily convert to military cannon fodder at the whim of the “elites,” but I’m thinking Waldorf to start when I have kids … </p>

<p>Now I agree that any artist should have a point of view grounded in real knowledge and a deep experience of the world. Uta Hagen made some nice suggestions about how to go about acquiring that which have nothing to do with “school” in both her books although the subtext reads that a real artist is most likely going to do a lot of those things given the time, anyway. But it seems to me that forcing huge amounts of math and science down the throats of creative types who may have little aptitude for it is often pushing the river to the point of destructiveness. I remember trying to help a girl in my drama program with her Algebra II homework in 11th grade. She started crying, threw her notebook at me and yelled, “You’re like all the rest! I always feel like I’m being attacked by Nazi fighter planes when people quiz me on this ****!” That’s how she really felt about it and I think its importance past basic functional math might be a wee bit overrated. Remember, Mary Louise Parker won the Tony for playing Catherine in “Proof” and she didn’t even get a BFA. She opted for the Diploma at UNCSA which means she didn’t complete the conventional academic requirements which probably didn’t include any math at the time in the first place. And I kind of doubt Russell Crowe (A Beautiful Mind) or Matt Damon (Good Will Hunting) display a lot of mathematical genius in their day-to-days although I’m sure they’ve employed some former A students to count their money for them. :wink: But again, it’s not a mutally exclusive thing, either. Roy London who was one of the most highly respected acting coaches in Hollywood history was a math prodigy as a child. He never attended a college conservatory, either. Then, Larry Moss who currently holds the title of “most sought-after coach” never attended a college of any kind although it didn’t stop him from at one time holding a teaching position on the Juilliard faculty nor from writing [The</a> Intent to Live](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Intent-Live-Achieving-Potential-Actor/dp/0553381202]The”>http://www.amazon.com/Intent-Live-Achieving-Potential-Actor/dp/0553381202) which is probably the best, most comprehensive book on modern American acting technique out there.</p>

<p>Just thought I’d throw that out for comment …</p>

51

<p>Great discussion. To add to others, I think the key is ‘student-led learning’ combined with practical considerations. </p>

<p>As for learning, well, not to sound cliche, but every student learns in a different way. I do happen to be a 'professional educator" (Secondary English and also Special Ed). Each high school has a very different environment, and each teacher is very different (if we have autonomy in the classroom, which we often don’t anymore), and lately, the movement toward ‘privatization’ has had very real, negative impacts on school climate and resources. </p>

<p>The point is that each child will thrive under different circumstance. My youngest would never ever enjoy alternative anything–he loves sports, and is motivated by outside drivers such as grades. He wants to learn, but wants to achieve ‘awards’ and accolades more. So he is a good candidate for regular high school.</p>

<p>My younger daughter despised high school but couldn’t achieve any other way. She was not self-disciplined enough to take online courses or self-explore learning (she would just have read endless books). She also needed the outside structure of high school to teach her multitasking and meeting deadlines and dealing with stress-these were very real challenges for her, more than high school. Plus, she wanted to achieve high scores to maximize her chances for scholarships, and this was indeed a strategy that paid off.</p>

<p>My middle son meanwhile is being homeschooled in the ‘unschooling’ fashion. I admire Glassharmonica’s approach very much and have been inspired and strengthened by her daughters’ obvious successes. It is very hard because I too am often attacked for homeschooling him–mocked, outright laughed at, etc. People often unthinkingly walk the path they think they need to walk and feel threatened when you diverge from that path. </p>

<p>But the bottom line for me has always been (or I’ve tried to have it always be) what my kids seem to need the most. I wasn’t as brave or visionary as glassharmonica, but I am trying to support them now as they navigate their adult plans. </p>

<p>I found the quip on the A’s B’s and C’s untrue more than witty by the way. With our increasing cronyism & class-conscious connections, getting the ‘right’ connections can matter more than individual hustle. That C student of yesteryear who became rich from his pluck and gumption is all too often now a low drudge in a corporate ladder with high college debt. It’s not the same world. To me, this is why art matters so much more now. In our increasingly corrupt, materialistic world, meaning and purpose can sustain lives. I think it’s wonderful to want to be a part of that. Any way you can.</p>

52

<p>

I would argue that endlessly reading books is not a bad way to “self-explore learning” :wink:

I agree with your thought that art matters! And of course the rooster’s quote is out-of-date, but it also does not apply to those who don’t want to be part of corporate America. It’s important to independently and take risks. Of course connections are important, but connections are only one of many critical components. You also need pluck, luck, smarts (not just book-smarts) energy, and (still) hard work.</p>

53

<p>glassharmonica, yes, that’s all true. I was just feeling despondent at the moment…</p>

54

<p>One thing about the rooster is that he’d never fit into a corporate workplace of any kind nor would he want to. He ate those people for breakfast, lunch and dinner while taking them to school at trial. Purely an old-school, Depression-Era-born one-man-show although he would bring in lawyers from other firms to work with him on the huge cases when he needed a bigger support staff. I think he’s retired now, but what a character study … The kind of person they base TV shows around and you would have laughed if you heard the way he said it. But, if you take him literally it would be wrong since I don’t think a C student could even be admitted to law school these days.</p>

<p>I actually planned to work for him as a messenger the summer after junior year until my mom intervened and made me take a waitressing gig at the local truck stop her friend owned when it dawned on her that I really was serious about pursuing acting as a career. “You may as well learn how to do what you’ll REALLY be doing now.” That was her mode of homeschooling other than the lecture she’d give my brother and I about the little kids she’d see in Third World port cities during her Navy years who could run their parents’ businesses as well as their parents when we’d come to her with some mess we’d made for ourselves …</p>

55

<p>fishbowlfreshman, sounds like you managed to pursue what you wanted despite lack of support at home. If my kids had my sister or brother as parents, you bet they’d hear the same thing; I hear it all the time from them myself. They mock my parenting decisions to my face. (One of the reasons I go on CC and why it’s been so invaluable–to read likeminded parents and students.)</p>

<p>In their world, the only goal in life is to make money and the trajectory of life is simple: college, work very hard, marry, have kids, work very hard, make as much money as possible by any means necessary so you can buy the biggest house with the best car and take the best vacations and eat out. The end. If you throw away your brains on any pursuit that doesn’t involve this goal, you are stupid or foolish or crazy. It’s that simple.</p>

<p>It’s very hard when you have no support - in fact, hostility and mockery - but on the flip side, it <em>does</em> prepare you to be pursue your goals no matter what. It’s sort of sink or swim–the ones who do manage to swim are that much stronger because of it. But it can be difficult and lonely. It sounds like you are stronger for it, and I hope your mom is more supportive of your career now.</p>

56

<p>In this world of almost too many choices, it’s easy to get caught in looking back and worrying about whether we made the right ones. We lived in a small town without all of the fancy programs of bigger schools, but also without a lot of the pressures. I figure my kids got both the best and the worst of both worlds, and we tried to fill in the cracks of what they wanted and needed with a few extra activities. But they never could do, or get, anything and everything they wanted, and never with only great teachers, great experiences, etc. </p>

<p>Both of my kids in their own way did the most they could with what was available, and what they were capable of at the time. As with any choices, I know that while in hindsight you sometimes ask yourself what were you thinking, at the time you usually know why you decided what to do or not to do. There are lots of threads on CC where we hear kids have said to their parents, “Why didn’t you make me work harder in HS? I wish I had better grades now.” I think the reason those kids -or any kids, or I myself - didn’t have better grades at any given time is because that was the best we could do at that time - based on the material, the teacher, what was going on in our life, our maturity level, all for better or for worse. And from year to year we’ll do what we can do, and make our choices, based on who we are and what we want. </p>

<p>I have written here before about “inclination” and how in anything, no less so in the arts, we all find our place, our personal approach, and how it fits into our life. I do feel bad for kids whose parents push them only for “achievement,” because there are way too many hours in the day, and years in our life, for that to be the only thing to do with our time. It is a shame if someone misses out on the feeling of taking a risk, not being the “best,” or better yet, not being able to put one’s work or activity on any kind of “win or lose” kind of scale. I think it’s very important to have all kinds of experiences - including ones that don’t “mean” anything, except just that you had them.</p>

<p>I think it takes a particular person to put all the pieces together to make a career in the arts - with everything that entails. But so many people are active in the arts, where it is a very big part of their lives, and they not only get an enormous amount of satisfaction from it, but they also make some pretty significant contributions to both the creative world and to society at large.</p>

<p>I am a professional musician. I do it just enough to love it and make a difference - in my small genre - but I can’t and wouldn’t want to do it full-time, with all that that entails. Frankly I wouldn’t be as good at it if I busted my butt and went on the road full time. I’d be unhappy and physically unhealthy. But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t do it at all. I get a ton of satisfaction out of being a part-time artist, and so do the people who share it with me. Imagine all of the art that would happen if everyone who had something creative to contribute did so, on the scale and in the amount of time that felt comfortable to them? We’d have a lot more happy people and a lot more great sounds, joyful movement, pretty things, terrific stories, and everything else that human beings can, but are too often afraid, to express.</p>

57

<p>I love everything you had to say there, EmmyBet.</p>

58

<p>OMG EB… You are just SO great!! You put into words exactly how I feel, but am not articulate enough to say. I feel, now more than ever, that parents are pushing their kids into achievement and careers with a assured salary, and sometimes I worry a lot about the arts as a whole because of this. But thankfully there are parents like all of you and myself that want out kids to be happy and follow their passions, take risks, and follow the path less taken.</p>

59

<p>EmmyBet is absolutely right. We all make choices and all the choices we make have pros and cons.</p>

<p>I studied in a school that’s pretty well-known where I come from. More than once the fact that I have a High School diploma from that school has given me opportunities, especially related to the arts. It is an incredibly hard school, and because universities here don’t look at grades (you have to take a test to get in), schools often prioritize teaching the hardest subjects and running the risk of having most students get below-average grades.</p>

<p>Usually the students that flunk the schools above or get expelled go to schools that are a lot easier and you pretty much just have to be awake during the class to get an A.</p>

<p>As I had said before, I went to school number 1. And I got not-so-good grades, although most people who are familiar with my school would agree that it’s impressive that I never got a grade below average. But at the time I didn’t know that grades would determine where I would go to college. I never thought I would need to rely on some silly grades for that! Now, because the name of my school doesn’t mean anything to Americans either, I think ‘If I had gone to an easier school, I would have been the best student and this wouldn’t be such a nuisance.’</p>

<p>But I actually don’t regret it at all. I might not have been able to apply for NYU or BU, but I got a great education; I was able to resuscitate my school’s drama club; I had wonderful teachers that knew I was an artist and couldn’t understand things in the old-fashioned way and let me direct movies about the books we read (instead of writing a 6-page analysis), or explain scientifict concepts using sci-fi movies, or even doing a poetry happening at the school for literature class. I was encouraged not to limit myself using only the books I was given, but to think outside the box and look for knowledge somewhere else. I quite possibly wouldn’t be pursuing an artistic career today if I hadn’t gone to that school.</p>

<p>That’s why I think grades don’t prove anything. I wasn’t a ‘model’ student, no way. I got suspended from school a number of times (I am a nonconformist haha), I was responsible for the banning of crosswords in the school (because I would do crosswords all day long and not pay attention, and everyone started doing the same), I would escape from school and visit my older friend, I would get into philosophical/political discussions with teachers during a lesson, etc. But in all modesty, I know (and have been told by teachers) I’m way smarter than the kids who would memorize everything and only got straight A’s. Some of my friends were always jealous of me because they would pull all-nighters before tests and I never opened a book in my whole school life and I would get better grades. Despite all of this, I hated high school and I never fit in. I feel like I spent my whole high school career just trying to find every single tiny opportunity to ‘outwit’ the system (e.g.: when they banned crosswords, I brought sudoku to school). As my mother would say, she should have put me in a very strict German school, at least I’d have more reasons to rebel against ‘the man’.</p>

<p>But as I said before, in the end, none of it matters. Some of the brightest people I know flunked high school, or didn’t get into college until they were in their mid-twenties, or dropped out of college or went to college to study engineering and became musicians.</p>

<p>Now, as for parents encouraging children, my parents don’t exactly approve of my choice. They know it’s extremely risky, but they also know that nowadays every profession is a risky one. The only thing that my father told me was: “I don’t care what you do in life. But the only thing I want you to do is to support yourself. You need to be the only one responsible for your income. Never rely on me and never get married because you need money. Earn your own money and be independent.”</p>

<p>This is a very long post, but I’m gonna finish it with a quote from my uncle, who works in the music business: “I chose to study Administration because I believed it would bring me a less uncertain future. Today I think I wasted my time, because I was always sure of what I wanted to do. By doing the impossible, my life worked out. And it has always been this way. Choose something you love doing with all your heart, that’s the only career that’s going to bring you a secure and promising future.”</p>

60

<p>Milky, my favorite part of your story is sudoku!</p>