Are jobs at Google/Apple/Microsoft etc really better?

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>Re: maikai’s earlier post (#32)</p>

<p>I disagree that the opportunities you speak of aren’t available at larger companies (I know people who have found them); they’re just harder to find. That being said, I agree that in a smaller company it’s more likely for a younger person to make an impact, simply because there aren’t as many people and everyone is expected to pull their own weight. There are many places I would rather be than at Google/Microsoft/Apple while having to maintain some archaic system.</p>

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<p>Your post implies that only the best and brightest ideas are fostered in big cities - as if somehow product success, importance, and relevance are functions of the population density and level of competitiveness of the area the product was developed in. To say something like this is just plain ignorance. </p>

<p>You can still design highly useful, successful, and important products without having to live the rat race lifestyle in a big megalopolis. Life is about balance after all, and the big, hypercompetitive cities do a poor job of giving you a balanced lifestyle - its work work work, develop complicated health problems from all of the constant stress, take a bunch of medications to counteract all of the health problems, and then retire when you’re 70 to Florida. </p>

<p>That lifestyle is simply not for everybody, including myself, and I live quite comfortably even by big city standards, in the middle of the California desert.</p>

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<p>NC has the Research Triangle with a bunch of tech companies. Presumably, there are worthy engineering and CS people there, so saying that you would not hire someone relocating from there would be similar to saying that you would not hire a new graduate from a university that you have never heard of (e.g. many out here have not heard of Stevens Tech, PINYU, and other eastern schools).</p>

<p>Of course, seeking a job in a different area may be more difficult in terms of logistics, since you may not be aware of all of the companies, plus the travel involved to do interviews, etc…</p>

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<p>I think the high tech life style is misunderstood. It is not always tense. One has to manage it and not let work occupies your whole life. You do have the the freedom to choose. </p>

<p>Many of my friends who work at these companies ski more than 50 days a year in winter alone. Have you seen the POV camera GoPro? It is invented by a surfer who grew up in the bay area. Google has special discount for group purchase of ski season passes. They would not have the discount if they don’t have enough people buying. Some divisions also has annual multiple days ski trip during weekdays, not weekend.</p>

<p>Just treat your first job as going to school. If you can get it, all these companies will just help you get future jobs easier, no matter where you go.</p>

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<p>I have two sons at Google, in two different cities, and besides loving their work and the teams they are on, and the atmosphere, and the fact that every day is “casual day”…one of them mentioned that they are in awe of the minds they get to interact with every day. They feel extremely fortunate to be where they are. </p>

<p>It’s true, the COL is higher in Silicon Valley & NYC. Pittsburgh is pretty good, however (the location of another Google office.)</p>

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<p>Maikai, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Ohio has GE, P&G, Siemens, and many other large companies (just to mention those in Cincinnati). The COL is very low, and in some ways it’s the best of both worlds. If you like NYC for the culture you can fly there several times a year and still come out ahead. I know many people who do just that.</p>

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<p>Everybody wants to work there because you get awesome recognition, salaries, bonuses, and insane perks as well as being apart of something special</p>

<p><a href=“Design You Trust”>Design You Trust;

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Everything just seems to work out nicely when you’re young and without commitments, doesn’t it?</p>

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<p>Not necessarily… check out Glassdoor for reviews of companies to work for.</p>

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<p>I’m not saying there aren’t ANY worthwhile companies outside of major metro areas. That would be ridiculous. That being said, there really aren’t as many as you would think. Just because a company has a big name doesn’t mean it’s worth working for, or it will have weight on your resume.</p>

<p>The statements about life in metro areas being all work, work, work are just silly. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are people who can produce WITHOUT killing themselves doing it. We have just as well rounded lives as the rest of you… family, friends, hobbies, etc… we just make more money, enjoy a better living standard, and have more employment options. ;-)</p>

<p>Having a generally higher competitive environment makes people more productive. It’s like any sport. Take tennis. I play my best against a talented opponent. When a match is very challenging, I’m in heaven… even if I lose. When I play a lesser opponent, I don’t play as well and don’t enjoy the match nearly as much. Oh sure, I won, but it’s an empty victory.</p>

<p>If you want a rewarding career and wonderful life in general, it would be best to stay in one of the “meca” areas for your particular expertise. This is where the greatest selection of jobs will be. This is where you are most likely to find the best fit for you. This is where you are most likely to meet the people who will help you (and you them) throughout your career. This is where your competition is best. This is where you will play your best game. This is where you will enjoy yourself the most.</p>

<p>It just makes sense, right? If you’re a young electrical engineer, wouldn’t you want to make a ton of money, work in NYC or Bay Area with thousands of job opps, have a vibrant tech/maker community to engage with, and countless young/hip metro environments to hang in, each with their own unique context and flavor of the city? Or would you rather live in Cincinnati?</p>

<p>Sorry if what I say rubs some of you the wrong way. But this is the truth as I see it. This is the truth as I have lived it.</p>

<p>…but I do hear they have some really interesting adult education classes for wood whittling in Ohio. ;-)</p>

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<p>I’ll throw my two cents into this conversation. I have worked at Intel and Microsoft.</p>

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<li><p>The pay is definitely higher at these companies versus working at medium sized companies with comparable experience.</p></li>
<li><p>The hours are longer at larger companies. With medium sized companies, there is more variety so you could potentially be working more hours, but in those situations I would recommend leaving unless you feel like you’re being compensated fairly. Not only this, but at the larger companies you are competing against much more intelligent people for promotions and raises.</p></li>
<li><p>Most people do not work on some revolutionary product. maikai hit the nail on the head when he said you are just a greater part of the whole. On the other hand, your minor contribute might be in a major product, which could possible give you more job satisfaction.</p></li>
<li><p>The surrounding areas of working at large companies generally reflective the average salary in price. Working in non-tech cities, software engineers are generally make above average pay, but in tech cities, you are on in a dozen.</p></li>
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This line only works when you are actually telling the truth, not making unsubstantiated claims that reek of bias.</p>

<p>Most people from NYC and similar cities are poisoned by a very strong form of arrogance, a “This city is the greatest place in the world and I would never leave it for any reason ever” mindset. I know many who have had a great deal of trouble moving from a $70k job in overpriced cities into a safe $150k job with benefits in a smaller city out of this ridiculous sense of big-city pride. There are many undesirable traits of big-city life that people develop that they themselves probably don’t even notice.</p>

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I haven’t really seen that. I’ve known quite a few people who have worked and worked and worked themselves into major health complications in their 50s for no appreciable benefit. A lot of these people did become millionaires, but most of the millionaires I know outside of LA/NYC/SV did not work themselves into their graves for their fortune. Plenty of relatively poor people in those areas as well who work just as hard because of the hypercompetitive hole they dug themselves into by never considering moving outside of the city.</p>

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Hypercompetition becomes an employer’s market. When they have this glut of individuals who are in much larger supply than necessary, they get to choose who they want, pay what they want, and demand as much work as they want. And that’s what they do. With questionable benefit, I might add. </p>

<p>These cities are a source of large-scale financing, but they’re not really anything special in terms of real value created. They do a lot, but they don’t really stand out as far as useful output per capita.</p>

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A great example of the kind of big-city arrogance that I’ve seen from every person I know who lives in “meca” cities: condescendingly dismissing a state for no reason other than because its biggest city doesn’t have at least 10 million people in it.</p>

<p>Ohio’s industry is actually quite significant FWIW - a simple Google search shows that they are pretty big on defense, steel, chemicals, automobiles, and a few high-tech industries; all of these require a good population of engineers. But that doesn’t really matter, does it?</p>

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<p>I think the OP is asking about CS, not engineering in general. </p>

<p>Sometimes people work because they like what they are doing. There is nothing wrong with it. I once worked in a beach town, very long hour, but nobody really care what time you come or leave, when the wave is good, half of the office is empty.</p>

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<p>I’ve worked for a HUGE aerospace company, a major internet company, and a 150 person company making software games. Let me tell you that in my experience the BEST company to work for was the game company…bar none. If you want to work in an environment that is absolutely INSANE and FUN there’s nothing that beats working for a game company. Work was like going to the arcades every freakin’ day. The other companies I worked for were all pretty much the same.</p>

<p>My 2 cents.</p>

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<p>Sure, it may be better to work in a place with a lot of different companies (and that would include a bunch more places than those you named). But what you are saying here is quite a bit different from your previous post #38, where, from an employer’s point of view, you said:</p>

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<p>Why the prejudice against someone from another part of the country, especially if s/he wants to relocate to the hip metro environment that you obviously like?</p>

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Your entire post comes off as arrogant, and tbh it just isn’t true especially this:</p>

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Yes, companies will pay people in NY more than those in say Houston but it doesn’t even come close to gapping the Cost of Living differences between the two cities. As for the employment options, let us not forget that there are also more people competing for the jobs.</p>

<p>And NY doesn’t have a better living standard than smaller cities: it is dirtier, more expensive, has more crime, and is full of arrogant people proclaiming the cesspool as the “greatest place on earth” when in reality it sucks. A couple of Art museums doesn’t change that.</p>

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<p>When I worked on Wall Street, lots of my co-workers lived two hours away, halfway out on Long Island or halfway to Philadelphia. Here in the Bay Area, I have colleagues who commute 90-minutes each way to and from work. That’s the downside of working in the “meccas.” Some people decide that there’s more to life than working and commuting, so they move away and take jobs elsewhere. To assume they leave because they can’t hack it is very naive.</p>

<p>Fortunately, there aren’t many people in the computer biz who have maikai’s view. Any computer or software company that wants to survive will hire good people irrespective of where they’re from.</p>

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There are a couple of questionable assumptions here, starting with the implicit claim that in areas like the Bay area there is an oversupply of qualified engineers. In places like the Bay area they can’t find enough good people to fill the available positions, which is why salaries are higher than on other areas. Demand bids them up. You want a lower salary go to a place where there are fewer employers. I bet the engineers in San Diego and Irvine are just as smart as the ones in the Bay area, but the lessened demand allows employers to pay less.</p>

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Companies like Google certainly do have an oversupply of qualified applicants - a lot of people hear about Google’s famous perks and they want in. And I don’t think anyone pays a lot more than Google does (from my experience they really don’t have to).</p>

<p>Most people I know who live in big-city land have a lower cost-of-living adjusted income than those that don’t, with the exception of those that became millionaires.</p>

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<p>NeoDymium,</p>

<p>Are we actually having this conversation? Just because you know some people who couldn’t hack it in a large metro area, and should have moved, doesn’t mean that’s the norm.</p>

<p>I again apologize, but I just can’t wrap my brain around any argument that suggests Cincinnati is as great a place to live as New York City or San Francisco. The later are “cities of the world”, mentioned in the same breath as London, Paris, Hong Kong, Tokyo, etc…</p>

<p>I mean, c’mon, are you really trying to convince soon-to-be-grads to pass on the life places like that can offer?!? …just because you think a dollar goes further in Ohio?</p>

<p>And I argue you present a false economy. They will make more in the “mecca” areas to compensate for the higher costs. They’ll also find other ways and opportunities to make money, like investment opportunities and information that would NEVER present themselves if they weren’t in a “mecca” area. They’ll make connections that would be nearly impossible to make outside of “mecca” areas.</p>

<p>Damn straight we’re arrogant about where we live. No excuses there, my friend! </p>

<p>Life is friggin’ awesome here!</p>

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<p>ucbalumnus,</p>

<p>Every time you challenge me, you take my words out of context. I would certainly hire a kid from NC fresh out of school. I would even hire an engineer (any level) who worked in NC who had never worked in metroNY before. I indeed said I wouldn’t hire someone who wanted to “come back”. The operative words of that sentence were “come back”. You conveniently left out a critical paragraph from that same post #38:</p>

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<p>If they were already working here at one time, how do I know why they left? They could say any reason. I have to assume worst case. I have to assume they couldn’t hack it the first time, so I also assume the won’t be able to hack it the second time either. </p>

<p>One thing about these “mecca” types of places, they are not places for second chances. They are places for people who know who they are from the beginning and “bring it.” </p>

<p>If they don’t, they can go to Ohio.</p>

<p>Sorry NeoDymium, the devil made me write that last sentence! ;-)</p>