<p>Surely you are trolling, maikai…</p>
<p>Maikai–suppose the brilliant programmer left NYC or Silicon Valley because his wife was in graduate school? Or doing a medical residency? Would that be an adequate reason to leave the coast for Flyover country? </p>
<p>And “not NYC” doesn’t equal “Palookaville.” You have an odd disrespect for 90% of the country. </p>
<p>And furthermore…the higher pay in NYC does NOT make up for the much higher cost of living. Ask my son who is making a near-astronomical sum for someone 5 years out of college. It’s just that housing costs are beyond “near” to “astronomical.” He loves Manhattan but they can only afford a nice apartment in Brooklyn and no way can they save for a house. So we don’t “think” a dollar goes further in Ohio, we know it does. </p>
<p>My son is happy but there are drawbacks, and it’s insane to say life outside of the pricey coasts is not worth living. People make different choices, all valid. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>And I don’t think I’m going to argue with you anymore.</p>
<p>Plus, let’s not forget how NYC is stupid, and how anybody who lives there is stupid, thus rendering their arguments invalid. QED</p>
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</p>
<p>Lots of people move from one place to another for various reasons that have nothing to do with whether they can “hack it” in some other area. In any case, any big metro area will have its weaker employees as well as its stronger employees, just like NC’s Research Triangle.</p>
<p>What would you say to someone who believes that (for example) Stevens Institute of Technology graduates are unworthy, because anyone worthy would have been admitted to and graduated from Cornell, MIT, etc.? That is analogous to what you are saying here.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus, Give the Stevens thing a rest. When I discussed the relative worth of certain colleges, on a completely different thread, I did so for the benefit of high school students who were asking.</p>
<p>You took that conversation completely out of context as well. A habit of yours when it comes to my posts.</p>
<p>mommusic, </p>
<p>Good questions in your first paragraph. Nothing is ever absolute. If I said “I’d never eat poop”, you could find a scenario in which I would indeed eat poop. I peel and eat boiled shrimp, therefore I eat poop, right?</p>
<p>I’ve always said if you have to cite an extreme or exceptional example to disprove someone’s position, you’ve probably lost your own.</p>
<p>It’s not disrespectful to claim someone’s career can benefit more in one of the “mecca” areas for their particular field rather than “flyover country.” That’s called “an obvious truth”, not disrespect. You guys feel insulted by that truth, so it feels like disrespect to you. </p>
<p>The claims you guys make about incomes and inability to live in places like NYC are ridiculous. C’mon, think a minute about what you’re claiming.</p>
<p>We have a housing market here just like you have a housing market where you live. The only difference is we have more apartments, more condos, more co-ops, more houses, more of everything, and… yeah… they are all more expensive than in fly-over country. But somehow we can afford to buy them. How do you explain that? </p>
<p>The housing market (and general cost of living for that matter) cannot out-pace the population. If it did, the prices/costs would have to collapse, because nobody could afford to buy. </p>
<p>Since you and I haven’t had an exchange up until now, I’m puzzled by your statement about not wanting to argue with me anymore. Was I not allowed to respond? ;-)</p>
<p>^ You must have missed my post earlier, maikai, but I already won this argument; in fact, everything after the QED is pretty much redundant, if I’m remembering my schooling correctly.</p>
<p>In seriousness, though, you make some mostly correct observations. Most big, important jobs (for software engineers, especially) are concentrated around big cities, and certain big cities, at that. The cost of living is higher in big cities, but compensation is higher, too; if there were an imbalance, then the so-called “meccas” would move. That they haven’t moved means that it’s still largely a good deal to stick around the “meccas”.</p>
<p>That said, I think the others are making some good points. There are some exaggerations on both sides. For instance, it’s valid to note that the cost of living means it’s not as great a deal to live and work in a “mecca” as compensation alone might suggest. Plus, people have different priorities, and if the benefits of a “mecca” don’t outweigh the costs (including opportunity costs of not living elsewhere, which may not be purely financial), it could be a perfectly rational decision to live in “flyover country”. Hell, there are a lot of things I love about living in a big city, but I do plan on leaving in the not-too-distant future… despite the understanding that this will impact my career.</p>
<p>All that said, I think everybody should acknowledge the kernel of truth here… many people who get near the top, and leave, do so because they don’t want to be there, or have other priorities. So why should they get another shot if they change their minds? There are plenty of people who haven’t had their shot yet who should have those opportunities.</p>
<p>There are actually two different things being discussed here:</p>
<p>A. Should a student choose to live in an area where there are numerous jobs and employers for the type of work that s/he wants to do, versus an area with fewer jobs and employers for that type of work (assuming actual job offers at graduation from employers in each area)?</p>
<p>B. Should employers care about a job applicant’s relocation history, including whether s/he relocated to an area with fewer jobs and employers in the type of work and now wants to relocate back to a job and employer rich area?</p>
<p>It is a mistake to say that a “yes” answer to one of these questions automatically implies a “yes” answer to the other. While I would recommend that someone choose a job and employer rich area for the type of work s/he wants to do, I would not hold an applicant’s relocation history against him/her, unlike some others posting here.</p>
<p>An analogous set of questions could be applied to college choices:</p>
<p>A. Should a student choose a college with strong consideration to strength of offerings in his/her intended major(s)?</p>
<p>B. Should an employer base a decision on an experienced applicant on the applicant’s school (or even whether s/he went to college or university) if the applicant has proven the needed skills for the job (let’s assume an area like computer science where external accreditation and licensing requirements are not generally a factor, and self-education is relatively common)?</p>
<p>BTW, the real Makkah (Mecca) is a place where many people *visit<a href=“for%20religious%20purposes”>/i</a>, rather than relocate to.</p>
<p>Again, the compensation does not match the Cost of living differences. A quick look at glassdoor will show you that a consultant with 1-3 years of exprience(for deloitte) in NY makes almost exactly the same as one in Dallas, while CNN shows one would have to make almost twice as much in NY for the compensation to be equal (Due to the Cost of living differences).</p>
<p>[Deloitte</a> Consultant Salary in Dallas-Fort Worth, TX | Glassdoor](<a href=“http://www.glassdoor.com/GD/Salary/Deloitte-Consultant-Dallas-Salaries-EJI_IE2763.0,8_KO9,19_IL.20,26_IM218.htm?filter.experienceLevel=ONE_TO_THREE]Deloitte”>http://www.glassdoor.com/GD/Salary/Deloitte-Consultant-Dallas-Salaries-EJI_IE2763.0,8_KO9,19_IL.20,26_IM218.htm?filter.experienceLevel=ONE_TO_THREE)
[Cost</a> of Living Calculator: Compare the Cost of Living in Two Cities - CNNMoney](<a href=“http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/]Cost”>Cost of living: How far will my salary go in another city? - CNNMoney)</p>
<p>Again, this is not Accounting, Finance, Law and Medicine. This is Computer Science. All of that competition/cream of the crop/who is the best does not matter because the average software engineer can pretty go work for another employer pretty easily.</p>
<p>One of the reasons why I liked the CS industry was because…I don’t have to be the best and get to make pretty much the same money as the so-called best. All I have to to specialize in whatever is hot. When there is not enough of you to go around, you get hired for just existing.</p>
<p>I graduated with a C-average GPA as an undergrad…and even that major was not primarily CS (it was Math). I got into grad school because I knew how the “game” worked and knew how greedy grad schools were.</p>
<p>I got e-mail and voice-mail #2 from Amazon (Federal Sector), inquiring again about my services. I will probably ignore it again as they are located in Northern Virginia and I live in Maryland. Although the total distance is 37 miles, that is 1.5 hours here in the DC area. I am spoiled, I am used to a 10 minute commute (to the NSA buildings) and used to coming home for lunch. Besides, I am in year 24 of this software engineering game. I am pretty much hitting the ceiling at most employers as far as salary so nobody is gonna pay a whole lot more. I am in my comfort zone now and will ride the “cloud & hadoop” wave for a few years until the next big thing comes and I ride that to retirement.</p>
<p>I understand folks want make the industry all competitive and such and want be like the folks on the business threads…comparing 10ths of GPA’s, latest rankings and the such, unlike the business majors…THERE ARE MORE JOBS THAN AVAILABLE CANDIDATES…so that goes out the window.</p>
<p>aegrisomnia, </p>
<p>Yeah, I saw. You DID win, so there was nothing to say. :-/</p>
<p>"…why should they get another shot if they change their minds? There are plenty of people who haven’t had their shot yet…"</p>
<p>Yes! Exactly! Someone gets it!</p>
<p>What if they change their minds yet again? They don’t know what they want? Sorry, no time to deal with that.</p>
<p>@GLOBALTRAVELER At the companies I’ve worked for, there are plenty of openings to fill, but between 5-15 candidates have been rejected for every new hire. Of course these numbers are probably atypical, given the current software engineering job market, but it does indicate that there is competition for something. I’ll grant that compensation probably isn’t the whole picture, but there are potentially several benefits to taking work at prestigious companies which might be less available elsewhere.</p>
<p>Basically, my point is that the Googles, Microsofts, Apples, Amazons, and Facebooks of this world still have their pick of employees, not the other way around. It strikes me as a bit naive to think that this situation exists because all those people irrationally compete for those jobs, while you’ve got everything figured out. A more straightforward resolution is that they’re playing a different game than you are, and probably not one where they give much thought to riding out tech fads into retirement.</p>
<p>There’s a lack of high-quality candidates, not a lack of candidates.</p>
<p>I think we cannot have a simple criteria to make good comparison.</p>
<p>Some people like sunny weather, some people like an area that have easy access to nearby cities for entertainment and recreation. Some people want to live an area in which their spouse can also easily find jobs and their kids can attend good schools or good facilities for talent development like sports, arts,… I know some people who came to California and had good jobs but they returned to their original cities such as Houston with hot and humid weather or Chicago with windy high rise buildings because they did not like California.</p>
<p>I cannot imagine that I can live in Washington state with year round rain or Florida with constant hurricane warnings. But I am already bored with California and I may pack and leave later. I am not sure I can take a job in Las Vegas although it may pay well.</p>
<p>I think high housing cost is not the deciding factor for professional people to decline a job offer. Sure, you have to high pay rent in the first few years. But when you have enough savings to buy an apartment or a small house then you may have a good investment return when you sell it later. People from all around the nation or the world know that housing cost is high in California but they still come to settle here.</p>
<p>An added benefit of living in a high cost of living area is anywhere else you go, it’s a bargain. ;-)</p>
<p>As a 50-something couple, we’re seriously planning for retirement. We have our summer home, which we will keep, but plan to spend our Winters away from here in a warm climate (most likely Maui). No matter where we look, everything is cheaper. ;-)</p>
<p>Granted, I’m not talking about an ocean front home on Maui. My current home is not ocean front. But we’ve found a several communities that have easy access to the beach and many residents use golf carts to bring their boards and stuff down. So not only have I had a wonderful life living here, the fact that I lived here will make my retirement life that much more wonderful too.</p>
<p>The cost of living numbers you guys are using are totally screwed. If you really thought about it with your heads, and stopped hating what I say so much, you’d realize there would be a mass exodus from places like this if what you were claiming were anywhere near true.</p>
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<p>While this may be true, there are also jobs that a given candidate may not get for a variety of reasons. For example, I’ve been told that I am overqualified for positions I’ve applied for.</p>
<p>
The difference after cost of living adjustments is due to people (generally) willing to pay more for the benefits of living in those expensive cities. People don’t throw away money for no reason. It really comes down to supply and demand.</p>
<p>My slant is that is seems too many folks are on this “high competition” kick. To me, there is no need to be that way in software engineering.</p>
<p>Granted, everyone looks at work/job differently. Me?..if it is not hitting a golf ball somewhere in the Caribbean, then it is work. Therefore, I put work/job into the “how much can I get out of it with minimal input” category. I don’t want some industry like business/accounting/finance where after all the academic work one does and all the SIMILAR work experience one does, you are immediately cast away because of your school or GPA or what employer you worked for.</p>
<p>I thought to myself…“I need an industry or niche industry to avoid all or most of that”.</p>
<p>Age and where someone is in life also plays a role. When your are younger, yeah you are more competitive. Once you life takes on attending soccer practices, checking homework and such then you start looking at companies like “are your benefits on par?..bonus and 401k matching on par?..got the same technology as everyone else?”…great.</p>
<p>If someone is young with good skill, and interested in leading edge stuff, SV is the place to be. For example, if you work at Google, you will have access to hadoop system years before people start talking about it. You will also have a chance to participate in the development in other company, not just using it.</p>
<p>For money, if you are good, you don’t really need to work 20 years to retire. You also will have a chance to become one of the kids who retire before they are 30 and become a full time investor/mentor.</p>
<p>There is always a boom bust cycle in SV. It is not always good, but it is good right now. Time like this does not come often. Don’t miss it!</p>