Are LACs Often Less Specialized in the Sciences than Large Research University Programs?

College Search & Selection
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<p>As someone educated outside the US (and an undergraduate from a world renowned highly selective university), I am struggling to understand the pros and cons of LACs versus research universities for science majors in the USA. I understand the basic concepts - smaller classes, more attention from professors, less grad students in the way, well rounded education, higher 4 year graduation rates etc. of LACs v. better equipment, exposure to cutting edge research, higher level course selections et al at larger research universities. LACs, some have claimed, may produce a very respectable number of PhDs and med/professional post-grad students. The LACs sound terribly appealing; and their campuses feel more familiar to my own European college experiences. I can imagine my quiet, studious, not quite the partying type, but fun loving child fitting into some of their campuses. However, I wonder if they will really best serve my senior daughter? </p>

<p>She has identified two basic areas of strong interest: botany and zoology . She is strongly considering asking about doing a double major in these at her local flagship public school in Maine. Her brother is there right now doing the Honors program and a double major in forestry and earth sciences over a 5 year period which will provide him with a Masters in Forestry by the 5th year assuming his grades suffice. His sister would possibly like to do something similar with botany and zoology. Since she is curious about ethnobotany and the study of medicinal properties of plants, she is also considering biochemistry, since she is also very strong in chemistry. Another area she is looking at is animal behavior at Franklin & Marshall. However, right now she is not sure if she will want to go on to anything beyond a Masters. Therefore, rather than assuming she will do research at the post-doc level, she is also casting about for some more entry level career possibilities e.g. in the wildlife biology/ecology/environmental occupations that seem a bit more friendly to those without a doctorate (albeit very competitive areas with dwindling employment opportunities).</p>

<p>I'm just wondering if the more generalized courses in Biology found at LACs will serve her as well as the more specialized, focused courses she could follow at a larger university? Other things to consider are, assuming she does well enough in her upcoming AP exams, the flagship university may provide her with 40 credits from AP examinations. LACs seem stingier in this regard, since they probably want their students to experience their own, more sophisticated courses. She sees the additional credit transfer as an opportunity to take even more classes in the topics she really wants to explore in botany and zoology (she said if she could, she'd take all the courses on offer). </p>

<p>Another consideration is, as thing stand right now, her SAT scores aren't highly competitive in terms of the more selective colleges. She currently has a 1300 SAT (M/CR) on her first time taking the SAT with <em>no</em> preparation. Trying to find time to squeeze test prep in has been difficult as she dances 20-30 hours weekly during the school year and very long hours throughout most of the summer. However, hopefully she will raise her math scores a little after finally squeezing in some self-guided prep in this past August. Her GPA is 4.0 and her class rank is probably good (school doesn't declare it for underclassmen, but she is always close to the top in most subject classes). She received a score of 4 in three AP exams in her junior year and is intending to take 4 more plus one dual credit course in her senior year. So she is a good student, not a fantastic test taker, and has achieved a high level of accomplishment in ballet that has left little time for other non-academic pursuits. She loved her AP history course last year; isn't thrilled about English, but manages to do respectably, anyway; is hungry to explore other new courses such as astronomy etc. She would love to read more widely than her current schedule allows. She has decided not to do dance formally at college because there are too many other academic courses (mainly sciences) she wants to sample there. </p>

<p>I just thought I would see what others thought about the whole question of large research university/ small nurturing LAC when it comes to a student with a very strong interest in the sciences, but still not sure if a PhD path is right or possible for her. She would be very happy working in the field in some sort of environmental plant, water, wildlife management situation. </p>

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<p>You can get by with a BS in wildlife biology, but a MS improves job prospects. The likelihood of graduate school should reduce the pressure of picking the perfect undergraduate college. Many, many colleges could get her into a good graduate program. </p>

<p>Liberal Arts Colleges</p>

<p>Most LACs have too few biology professors to offer more than a couple of organismal biology classes each semester. Moreover, since LACs generally don’t have a critical mass of interested students, you’re unlikely to find specialized classes in wildlife biology offered on a regular basis. On the upside, however, LACs devote their full attention to undergraduates, and a shy student may do particularly well in such an environment. </p>

<p>Among LACs, Conn College, Juniata, Middlebury, Ohio Wesleyan, Swarthmore, Lawrence U, Eckerd, Allegheny, Whitman, Hood, and the College of the Atlantic are particularly good for organismal biology. If you expand to ecology, the list grows considerably longer. Spend some time browsing through old threads; @Zapfino, @LakeWashington, and other posters have written many helpful posts over the years.</p>

<p>For a LAC student who feels stifled by the lack of relevant classes, there’s always the option of spending a semester or two abroad. Organizations like [OTS[/url</a>] are popular with zoology and biology majors, and many colleges run their own programs in wildlife hotspots like Kenya. [url=&lt;a href=“http://marinebio.org/marinebio/careers/research-labs/]Marine”&gt;http://marinebio.org/marinebio/careers/research-labs/]Marine</a> labs](<a href=“http://www.ots.ac.cr%5DOTS%5B/url”>http://www.ots.ac.cr) in the US are another option. Be sure to carefully scope out off-campus opportunities for biology majors and what the college’s financial aid and transfer credit policies are for off-campus study programs.</p>

<p>Universities</p>

<p>The biggest hurdle at a university is getting past the intro classes. Introductory biology and chemistry in particular are often huge and intentionally difficult. Organic chemistry and the required lower-level biology classes (ecology/evolution, genetics, molecular biology and cell biology) can also be pretty large. Organismal biology classes are usually significantly smaller, in the 15-20 students range. If she has AP credit for the biology/chem/physics/math prerequisites for a biology major, she should be able to place out of many of the biggest classes. </p>

<p>Contrary to the prevailing wisdom on these boards, I think a university can be a perfectly nurturing place for a student with an interest in the life sciences. My own alma mater absolutely flung resources and opportunities at undergrads in a vain attempt to lure students away from pre-med and into ecology. Large universities like Michigan State can provide a niche through specialized learning communities like Lyman Briggs. </p>

<p>It’s true that undergraduates have to compete with graduate students for faculty attention at universities, but there’s also a significantly wider range of research activity. Some universities have entire departments devoted to zoology or botany, whereas you might have only one or two such professors at a LAC. While there’s increased competition, therefore, there’s also a marked increase in the number of available lab positions. Moreover, there’s quite a few summer programs for college students – REU programs are fully funded, and many herbaria and arboretums offer funded internships. Zoos, aquariums, and government agencies like the NPS are happy to host summer interns. For young zoologists, summer field positions aren’t too hard to get (there’s a listing [here[/url</a>] and [url=&lt;a href=“Physiological Ecology Section of the Ecological Society of America”&gt;Physiological Ecology Section of the Ecological Society of America]here](<a href=“Physiological Ecology Section of the Ecological Society of America”>Physiological Ecology Section of the Ecological Society of America)</a>). </p>

<p>On the downside, you really have to be a go-getter to make the most of a university. If you’re an aggressive undergrad, you can seek out faculty and form good relationships, get heavily involved in research, and even present at conferences or get published. If you’re a shy or less confident student, you might disappear into the background, something less likely to occur at a LAC. </p>

<p>General advice</p>

<p>I would cast a wide net, and a balanced list should probably have both LACs and universities. For an interest in ethnobotany, scope out anthropology departments in addition to biology – be wary of any colleges that combine their anthropology and sociology programs into one department. </p>

<p>As you know, U Maine is a great choice given her interests. Outside Maine, SUNY ESF might be a good place to start. It’s relatively cheap for OOS students (~$30K for tuition + room/board), has many relevant programs, and is quite small for a public university (1650 undergrads, 600 grad students). </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.esf.edu/admissions/programs.htm”>http://www.esf.edu/admissions/programs.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Humboldt State is also fairly small (7700 undergrads, 540 grad students) and reasonably priced (~$28K for tuition + room/board). It has a beautiful location and arguably the finest undergraduate program in botany in the country. </p>

<p><a href=“Majors & Programs | Cal Poly Humboldt”>Majors & Programs | Cal Poly Humboldt;

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<p>Thank you so very much for your thorough response! Very helpful. </p>

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<p>I don’t think going to an LAC would hurt your daughter’s career opportunities, and the smaller, more supportive/nurturing environment may actually be beneficial in helping her with summer jobs/internships in a specific field, while allowing her to experiment in different disciplines.</p>

<p>I think it’s interesting to look at what alumni/ae of specific departments have done after graduation. This information is from Williams, but most likely you’d find similar diversity at any LAC with a strong biology department. <a href=“http://biology.williams.edu/alumni/”>http://biology.williams.edu/alumni/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Smith’s biological sciences program sounds as if it would be a good fit for your daughter for several reasons – the culture of support for women in the sciences, the academic breadth of the consortium. Smith also offers a wide rancge dance performance opportunities on an extra-curricular, non-major level.</p>

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<p>Thank you. Her friend went to Smith this fall. I’ll suggest she take a look.</p>

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<p>Probably. It’s not that LACs don’t have specialized classes; it’s that they have fewer specialized classes than large research universities, primarily because they have fewer professors. But those fewer professors will still offer specialized seminars in their individual areas - so if she goes to an LAC with a few professors with specializations in botany and/or zoology, she’s likely to be able to take a class in that area. It’s true that you are much, much more likely to find these kinds of classes at a large flagship university though - but it’s not really clear whether she actually needs that kind of specialization on the undergrad level anyway.</p>

<p>Another option is going to an LAC that is close to and/or in a consortium with other colleges or a large flagship university. An example is the Five Colleges (Hampshire, Smith, Mount Holyoke, Amherst, and UMass-Amherst). UMass is a large public research university that might have strengths there. Or, for example, if she chose Agnes Scott College - which is close to Emory and has a cross-registration agreement with them - or Barnard College - which is across the street from Columbia.</p>

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<p>I agree! While it’s true on average that LACs have smaller classes and closer professor relationships than large research universities, that doesn’t mean that all research universities are the same and that even a shy young woman can’t thrive in a large place. Generally, it’s only the survey courses that are large - the upper-level seminars are often capped at X students, and offer an opportunity to interact in a different way with professors. The presence of graduate students can be a plus, as grad students and postdocs can act as important near-peer mentors for undergrad students and give them an idea of what attending grad school is like. (I mentored a couple of undergrads as a grad student, and I greatly enjoyed it and devoted a lot more of my time to it than my PI ever would.) Advanced students could potentially take graduate courses in the field, and there’s a big advantage to having access to cutting-edge research in labs.</p>

<p>I went to an LAC and I’m a firm believer that LACs offer a great starting point for budding scientists, especially the elite ones (at which professors have teaching loads that are pretty similar to that of research-extensive professors, and are expected to do a lot of research and compete for external grant funding. The professors at Amherst and Pomona might teach fewer classes per year than the professors at your local public comprehensive research RU/H university.) But so can large universities! I was a grad student at a heavily grad-focused, RU/VH private university with a medium-sized undergrad population and the students there were co-authoring papers, presenting at conferences and fostering meaningful relationships with their professors.</p>

<p>…I also want to point out that you can also disappear into the background at an LAC. It’s a smaller environment, but nobody is going to force you to get involved. Although it may be more difficult to throw yourself into the swing of things at a large university, it is possible to float through your classes at an LAC kind of half-present.</p>

<p>So basically, either could be a good choice. I think it’s going to be more based on the opportunities and offerings at the individual school than the type of institution it is.</p>

<p>Since she’s in Maine, she may want to look at the College of the Atlantic, a Maine LAC that has emphases on ecology and sustainability:</p>

<p><a href=“Areas of Study · College of the Atlantic”>http://www.coa.edu/areas-of-study.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Casinius College in Buffalo also has a major in animal behavior, ecology and conservation.</p>

<p><a href=“Animal Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation | Canisius University - Buffalo, NY”>http://www.canisius.edu/abec/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Ohio Wesleyan is a smaller school with zoology programs. SUNY Oswego is another.</p>

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<p>Thanks again - lots for me to process here.</p>

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<p>Thanks again - lots for me to process here. And yes, College of the Atlantic has got to be one of the most beautifully situated campuses I’ve come across - right next door to a National Park. My daughter checked it out last year with her brother - took a double soil class there and discovered she loved learning; loved science. </p>

<p>I think the larger oos public RUs are sometimes a bit dicey in terms of finances for us. Loved Michigan State but it would cost twice the price of Harvard for us. I will look at some of the LACs people have suggested that are part of a consortium and perhaps a little less competitive to get into than their high powered neighbors. If she gets her SAT scores up a tad, she might well qualify, as her friend did with Smith (also a dancer), and becomes Good to know about the research responsibilities at the LACs with well known science programs. </p>

<p>I also just discovered that she can qualify as a Canadian citizen for domestic tuition rates at Canadian colleges. Not sure how her US education would transition as my husband tells me it is a bit different there. Also not sure about the amount of travel and immigration control involved. But it has definitely opened up more places to investigate that provide affordable quality programs.</p>

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<p>I don’t have any recommendations for specific schools, but I struggled with the choice of a large research university vs. LAC when I was deciding as well (as a neuroscience major). The LACs pointed out that they don’t have PhD students, so the professors (and the research) is more focused on undergraduates and you can often start doing research earlier. The research universities do have more cutting edge research, and the professors are more likely to have the connections to other top-notch researchers in the field that can give you a leg up.</p>

<p>I knew I wanted to get involved in research (even though at that point I was still in denial about wanting to go to grad school), and the more complex research of the larger universities pulled me in more. Also, because I had a lot of course credit coming in, they said I would likely be able to get involved in research earlier. (One school even offered me a research position and funding with my acceptance!) I also felt that I was assertive enough to make myself visible in a larger university. It wasn’t an easy choice, but I’m glad I went to a larger university. I’ve been able to take a number of graduate and specialized courses that I would not have seen myself taking when I started, and have had great research opportunities. But it’s those researcher connections that have made a far bigger difference than I anticipated. They have gotten me multiple co-op positions (including one in a prestigious lab in Germany) and placed me in a fantastic position for PhD programs.</p>

<p>I figured out that a research university was the best fit for me because I like to delve deep in an area. This isn’t necessarily the approach that works best for everyone, but I thought I’d throw in my two cents about what factored into my decision. Hope it’s helpful!</p>

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<p>Yes, very helpful, Nano. And very interesting. Especially about the course credit. That is something my daughter feels strongly about. She has about over 40 credits if she goes to her flagship Uni (which has some pretty decent PhD Professors in her interest areas) that would allow her to dive into her areas of interest sooner. Me - I’d love for her to get the full liberal arts experience, but this isn’t about what I want. That’s amazing that the offer of research and funding! You must have been a pretty impressive candidate!</p>

<p>BTW, I didn’t want to leave the impression that my D is a complete shrinking violet. She is a performer - often having the lead in very technically, mentally and emotionally demanding performances. That develops a very distinct kind of inner strength. I think eventually she will get the hang of asserting herself in everyday situations, even though it doesn’t seem obvious or natural to her now. But definitely not a type A extravert/life 'n soul of the party type. We are also considering places that will acknowledge the dance card she brings since this is something she has given 20- 30 hours each week to (much more in summers), leaving less time for test prep, and social contributions than many strong students (although her academic record is strong),and already have two or three places in mind. </p>

<p>Anyway, I really appreciate you sharing your decisions and path. It does help.</p>

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<p>Something else to consider for a larger RU is a way to make it smaller like an honors program. Thinking of UHouston Iowa State, and Arizona State (no idea what kind of biology/ecology programs they have though but it’s the idea of making a larger school smaller). You have the opportunities available to you at a large RU but also smaller classes, opportunities for ug research, connection with professors, senior project/thesis, etc. </p>

<p>I will also ditto the option of going to a smaller school that is part of a consortium that will allow you to cross register at other schools. For example full-time MIT students may take subjects for credit at Harvard University, Wellesley College, the Massachusetts College of Art and Design (MassArt), and the School of the Museum of Fine Arts (SMFA) without paying additional tuition. Harvey Mudd in California has some of the same kinds of options. Our dd has applied to MIT with an interest in mechanical engineering but she is also stoked about taking art classes. If she were to be accepted to MIT (big IF) then she has the artistic outlets available to her and can minor in art by taking classes at MassArt or SMFA. </p>

<p>I think you’ve gotten some great advice. I don’t necessarily think there is a bad option. Your student can make the most of any school experience but it’s good to think ahead of time making sure they have the fields she is interested in. One caution we’ve given our college bound kids is to find a school that has a good variety of study option as it’s definitely an possibility that once you start college, you’ll change your major or find something else you’re also interested in pursuing. It’s nice if your school isn’t so narrowly focused that you have other options available to you. Happy researching! </p>