<p>It really amuses me that science students want to do cutting-edge research and present their results at meeting before they learn how to balance a chemical equation… :rolleyes:</p>
<p>^yes!</p>
<p>10char</p>
<p>^Yes! Thank you!</p>
<p>Totally agree. It sounds to me it’s more like their parents who want them to be doing that.</p>
<p>Actually some have learned to balance a chemical equation before college. And some even before HS. Here is a write-up of one of this year’s graduates from Harvard (bolding mine)</p>
<p>
[Radcliffe’s</a> Fay Prize awarded to Norman Yao for pioneering research — The Harvard University Gazette](<a href=“http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2009/06.04/fayprize.html]Radcliffe’s”>http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2009/06.04/fayprize.html)</p>
<p>key phrase would be “some.”</p>
<p>Indeed. That’s the whole point, innit? The post you so gleefully endorsed did not include the word “some.” Instead it made a sweeping generalization. Mine included the word “some.” Nuance is all.</p>
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</p>
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</p>
<p>It actually is relevant when you consider that prestige is very important internationally, so if your school isn’t known worldwide you might have a harder time finding a job overseas.</p>
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</p>
<p>I can see how that would be relevant if he observes his LAC PHD students underperform compared to those from research universities.</p>
<p>Unless balancing equations is required for research, I don’t see how it’s relevant. I have friends building autonomous vehicles, synthesizing diamonds at the molecular level, creating microprocessors and etc. And most of them hate chemistry. I will personally be entering a poker AI tournament with a project team and also work, with something like 16 other undergrads, on updating the definitive database of post-1800 international conflicts that everybody uses. Research opportunities are plentiful if you look for them (at least in my research uni), unless you insist on them being paid or something.</p>
<p>“Unless balancing equations is required for research, I don’t see how it’s relevant.”</p>
<p>Are you serious? That is the problem with rushing things, you miss the building blocks.</p>
<p>Learning takes time. Ability needs to be nourished. New concepts need time to sink in. What is the rush? There is plenty to learn in the undergraduate curriculum in the area one selects for their major and then during the same time there is the opportunity to study topics outside of your area. Then you have the rest of your life to do research if that is what you decide to do.</p>
<p>
Marite, I gleefully endorse your point.</p>
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</p>
<p>I hate chemistry. My majors have nothing to do with chemistry. I choose to spend my electives studying stuff that doesn’t involve equation balancing in any form. You hatin’ on my choices? </p>
<p>I really don’t see how me and my fellow compatriots must delay our research efforts because we have yet to learn something that’s irrelevant to our interests. And if it is relevant, then we would’ve learned it.</p>
<p>And if we didn’t do this research right now, then we probably would’ve spent the summer playing video games. It’s not rushing much, I can tell you that.</p>
<p>No Ray, I’m not hatin’ on your choice. Go for it. I’m so confused right now I think I’ll stop posting.</p>
<p>Another perspective, which was posted some time ago under Drew University (editing- under Drew University on on CC):</p>
<p>[US</a> News and World Report Got It Wrong - Randolph-Macon College](<a href=“http://www.collegenews.org/x2002.xml]US”>http://www.collegenews.org/x2002.xml)</p>
<p>"Perception and reality may be two different issues but over time perception becomes reality. </p>
<p>It is simply hard to deny that LACs generally lack recognition despite their advantages. This clearly affects how they are perceived and not just among the uneducated masses. It is a fact that even the most sophisticated consumers (students and their parents) will seldom choose a top LAC over a top university. How often does a student turn down Harvard for Amherst or MIT for Harvey Mudd? It happens anecdotally, but not very often. Top LACs struggle with yields in the 30% while top universities reach 60% and above. LACs still depend on ED to fill their classes while top universities do not. Even in the Northeast, they are not seen as equivalent by the students who are admitted and have a choice to enroll at a highly ranked university. With few exceptions, students will pick top LACs when they can’t get into top universities and some may even settle for arguably lesser universities over top LACs. The numbers just don’t lie. LACS are a hard sell for many." - Cellardweller</p>
<p>This is just nonsense. ANY student admitted to Swarthmore or Amherst or Williams was also admitted - or would’ve been admitted had they been interested enought to apply - to virtually any top university in the country, including Duke, Cornell, Dartmouth, U of Chicago, Stanford, Northwestern, or ANY state U etc. Harvard, Yale and Princeton are just about the only universities in the country harder to get into than Swarthmore et al, at the top of the LAC food chain. And I know people admitted to Yale and rejected at Swarthmore. I know people admitted to Brown, Columbia and Cornell who chose schools like Carleton, Middlebury and Wellesley instead. I’m talking full pays, so they chose the school not the bigger financial aid package.</p>
<p>Any negative perceptions of top LACs comes ENTIRELY from the uneducated masses. Thirty percent of Americans cannot name the current vice president of the United States, but they can tell you who is ahead in the NASCAR standings. You’re going to ask those people if they’ve heard of Pomona or Bowdoin? Do you care if they’ve heard of your college? Why?</p>
<p>Coureur @ post #163:
I don’t know about Cancer Research, but if you visit the web sites of leading liberal arts colleges, it’s usually not too hard to find faculty profiles with lists of research accomplishments. Examples: </p>
<p>[Author</a> Query Results<a href=“William%20Herbst,%20Wesleyan%20University,%20Astronomy”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.bowdoin.edu/faculty/m/mcain/index.shtml]Michael”>http://www.bowdoin.edu/faculty/m/mcain/index.shtml]Michael</a> L. Cain (Bowdoin)<a href=“Biology%20&%20Mathematics”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://biology.vassar.edu/facultystaff/kennell.html]Vassar”>http://biology.vassar.edu/facultystaff/kennell.html]Vassar</a> College Biology : Jennifer A. Kennell](<a href=“Astrophysics Data System”>http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-abs_connect?return_req=no_params&&author=HERBST,%20W&db_key=AST)
[Dieter</a> Bingemann<a href=“Williams%20College,%20Chemistry”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.psychology.pomona.edu/cogaging/selectpubs.html]Untitled”>http://www.psychology.pomona.edu/cogaging/selectpubs.html]Untitled</a> Document<a href=“Pomona%20College,%20Cognition%20&%20Aging”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.macalester.edu/~wests/]Sarah”>Sarah E. West]Sarah</a> West, Department of Economics, Macalester College Homepage<a href=“Macalester%20College,%20Economics”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.coloradocollege.edu/dept/GY/faculty_eric_leonard.asp]Geology”>http://www.coloradocollege.edu/dept/GY/faculty_eric_leonard.asp]Geology</a> Department - Colorado College: Faculty<a href=“Colorado%20College,%20Geology”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://people.reed.edu/~mab/publications/index.html]Mark”>Mark A. Bedau | Research | Publications]Mark</a> A. Bedau | Research | Publications<a href=“Reed%20College,%20Life%20Sciences%20&%20Philosophy”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.middlebury.edu/academics/ump/majors/neuro/hours/primary/Mark+Stefani.htm]Mark”>http://www.middlebury.edu/academics/ump/majors/neuro/hours/primary/Mark+Stefani.htm]Mark</a> Stefani<a href=“Middlebury%20College,%20Neuroscience”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.macalester.edu/physics/facultyandstaff.html#Sung_Kyu_Kim]Physics”>http://www.macalester.edu/physics/facultyandstaff.html#Sung_Kyu_Kim]Physics</a> and Astronomy<a href=“Sung%20Kyu%20Kim,%20MacalesterCollege,%20Physics”>/url</a><br>
[url=<a href=“http://academic.reed.edu/psychology/ahrp/publications.html]AHRP”>Related Publications - Adolescent Health Research Program]AHRP</a> | Adolescent Health Research Program<a href=“Kristen%20Anderson,%20Reed%20College,%20Psychology”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://130.58.92.192/BUGZ/publications.htm]Amy”>http://130.58.92.192/BUGZ/publications.htm]Amy</a> Bug’s Home Page<a href=“Swarthmore%20College,%20Physics”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.brynmawr.edu/physics/PBeckmann/publications.html]Bryn”>http://www.brynmawr.edu/physics/PBeckmann/publications.html]Bryn</a> Mawr College: Department of Physics - Peter A. Beckman - Publications<a href=“Bryn%20Mawr%20College,%20Physics”>/url</a>
<a href=“http://165.82.168.47:591/facultybib/FMPro?-db=citations.fp5&-format=basic.html&-view[/url]”>http://165.82.168.47:591/facultybib/FMPro?-db=citations.fp5&-format=basic.html&-view](<a href=“http://www.williams.edu/Chemistry/dbingemann/index.www.html]Dieter”>http://www.williams.edu/Chemistry/dbingemann/index.www.html)</a> <a href=“faculty%20citation%20search%20page%20for%20tiny%20Haverford%20College,%20multiple%20fields”>b</a>**</p>
<p>marite, my comment was triggered by some of the posts on this thread (and BTW was meant to include the word “some”, but I was distracted and hit the “submit” button too early); it was not directed to kids like your son or POIH’s daughter. Let me use chemistry as an example. I personally know a few brilliant HS students who mastered the theory of organic chemistry to the point that regular college org. chem. classes would have been a waste of time for them. Some of them went on and completed college in two years or less and are now pursuing graduate degrees. However, I’ve seen many more HS kids and college undergrads who wanted to do “research” without really having the background and the knowlege to do anything meaningful in the lab. Sure, they could mix chemicals and run columns after being shown how to do it, but they were not able to contribute intellectually to the design of new experiments or to draw conclusions from the experimental results. Rushing things and skipping educational steps produces poor scientists, no matter where they come from - a LAC or a huge university.</p>
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<p>Sure, but by looking where the LAC professors have concentrated their publications down into a few places you not getting an accurate view of what is their actual relative contribution to the scientific enterprise.</p>
<p>The point I’m questioning would be the simple statement “LACs have great labs and do a lot of important research.”</p>
<p>You’re saying that finding a bunch of cherry-picked papers concentrated on LAC websites confrims the point.</p>
<p>I’m saying not so fast. Let’s look at it from the other end. Let’s take a broader look at the population of high-end soientific publications and see what percentage are coming from LACs (answer: not much).</p>
<p>An Analogy:
If the statement in question were “Latvians are great marathon runners,” your approach would be to go where the Lativans are concentrated - to say the results of the Riga City Marathon and show all the Lativians with decent places and finishing times and say “See?”</p>
<p>By contrast, I would look at the broad population - at top finishers of the major international marathons: Boston, New York, London, Berlin, Tokyo, The Olympics, and World Championships and say “I don’t see many Latvians with high finishes or hot times. In fact I don’t see any. Compared to the other big time marathoners, Latvians aren’t doing very much.”</p>
<p>The LACs are the Latvians of the high-end research world.</p>
<p>
But everybody has to start sometime, right?</p>
<p>I started research in a fairly big-time lab at the beginning of my sophomore year at MIT, when I really had very little field-specific knowledge. But I was excited, and the people in my lab were great, patient teachers, and even with my limited knowledge about cellular neuroscience, I was able to grasp our project. Then the knowledge I gained and the techniques I learned in the lab in turn helped me understand the material I was learning in class more deeply. I didn’t start really reading the literature and designing experiments of my own until I was a senior, probably, but I still felt that my time in the lab sophomore year was well-spent, both for me and for the project.</p>
<p>In both the lab I was in as an undergrad and the lab I’m now in as a graduate student, undergraduates aren’t seen as intellectual deadweight – they’re expected to think and suggest and interpret just like everybody else. And the undergraduates in both labs have risen to the challenge.</p>
<p>You’ve convinced me molliebatmit.</p>
<p>I agree with Courier on this one. I’m sending my daughter to an LAC because there is not research going on there. The professors are there to teach, that is where their time is spent.</p>
<p>She is very smart but she doesn’t even know what she wants to major in. Some kids are ready to narrow their focus sooner than others.</p>
<p>
More often than you might think…from what I’ve heard, quite a few Ivy League profs send their own offspring to top LAC’s.</p>
<p>
As a LAC booster of no mean degree and as a former cross-country runner of partial Latvian descent, of course you know, this means war. (And we know the difference between Riga and rigor even if both are pronounced the same in Boston.)</p>