Are liberal arts colleges perceived as second tier?

<p>Maybe they should feel more frightened by the prospect that they will get to their little school and find that they actually will not fit in as well as they thought with the overtly dominant prevailing campus culture, where all the birds are of the same feather and flocking together, and then have nowhere to turn socially. My family is 2 for 2 on that score. And 3 for 3 in liking the U environment just fine, finding one’s own group within the many choices.</p>

<p>“The life of the mind argument is, frankly, ■■■■■■■■. IMO.”</p>

<p>I don’t know why this is being misinterpreted, my point, if you read beyond this opening sentence, was that I experienced no “life of mind” deficit during my time at a larger university, LAcs do not have any monopoly on this aspect. Not that “life of mind” itself was a bad thing.</p>

<p>pizzagirl, it’s the “not caring” aspect that I personally was struck by in Monydad’s comment. I wasn’t a science major at Wesleyan, but, I knew what was going on in the science building, who was teaching what, what the big specialties were. And, it wasn’t anything I had to make a conscious decision to do, because that was part of the everyday conversation that went on. I’m pretty darned sure the science majors knew who the hot-shot humanities teachers were.</p>

<p>Can someone tell me what is meant by "life of the mind?’ Do those poor folks who don’t go on to a Ph.D. spend the rest of their lives vegetating? Non-Ph.D.s are known to have written books, and not just about their specific specialties or based on their work experience.</p>

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Cellardwellar, my understanding is that Reed has an unusually low 6 year graduation rate compared to peer LACs. Its graduation requirements are unusually difficult. These include oral qualifying exams at the end of 3rd year, which may cover material in any course the student has taken in those 3 years, plus a senior thesis requirement.</p>

<p>The retention numbers I’ve seen for top LACs tend to be very high:
96% , Amherst
95% , Williams
94% , Swarthmore
94% , Pomona
93% , Carleton
93% , Vassar
93% , Wesleyan
92% , Wellesley
92% , Davidson
91% , Middlebury</p>

<p>My source: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/598945-usnwr-2009-looking-data-xxii-6-year-graduation-rates.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/598945-usnwr-2009-looking-data-xxii-6-year-graduation-rates.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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Moneydad, the nation’s leading universities simply enroll more students. The only national, liberal arts university that ranks among the top 10 overall per capita for graduate Ph.D. production is the University of Chicago.

I don’t know how we would measure who has more highly intellectual people, but again, according to the HEDS findings, LACs tend to out-perform national universities for Ph.D. production per capita.</p>

<p>To me, “life of the mind” simply means that you’re going to college / university in order to learn for the love of learning and wanting to be surrounded by other people who take their education seriously. Where that path ultimately leads you to isn’t the concern, because it’ll all work out in the end somehow. Whether that path leads you to taking a job right out of school, graduate studies / PhD / academia, Wall Street, or any other place isn’t the immediate objective. </p>

<p>It’s the antithesis of “but what about the prestiiiiiiiiiiiige? but what if the guy at the drycleaners never heard of my school? and what about impressing my extended family with my choices? what are the starting salaries and how many of them get i-banking jobs?” that seems to be quite a large metric on CC.</p>

<p>And, of course, either of these can be equally gotten at an LAC and a university.</p>

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<p>This is a benefit to your own academic learning in your own specialty because … ? I’m not following why this is important. I’m not quite sure why not knowing the top engineering professors at NU was a detriment to my economics studies. Can you explain?</p>

<p>it was a benefit to me as a human being. :)</p>

<p>How many top engineering professors did you actually come to know at Wesleyan, that so benefitted you as a human being??</p>

<p>there were none. But, I can assure you that had there been any, I would have known them, too.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, sure, but why does having a “life of the mind” have to be measured by the proportion who go on to Ph.D.s only? Don’t lawyers, engineers, doctors, investment bankers have no “life of the mind?”
I see this dichotomy as peculiarly pernicious, and speaking as a Ph.D., elitist and silly. And frankly, given that the most common declared major is “undecided,” it is by no means clear that those who apply solely to LACs have a burning desire to cultivate a “life of the mind” any more than the undecideds who go off to HYP or some state uni (those who apply to MIT or Caltech or HMC or RIP have a better idea, however).</p>

<p>there are some professions that entail keeping up with the reading in your field, traveling to hear what colleagues have to say about emerging aspects of a given field. These are literally what we call, “learned professions”. I think pizzagirl’s point is that to the extent your life is built around punching a clock, it isn’t exactly devoted to the mind.</p>

<p>“Can someone tell me what is meant by "life of the mind?'”</p>

<p>Here’s how one school refers to it, without defining it (my bold for reference):

[Reed</a> College Admission Office](<a href=“http://web.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/reed_paradoxes.html]Reed”>http://web.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/reed_paradoxes.html)</p>

<p>So does it mean that people go to HYPSM for the football or the country club atmosphere? Gimme a break!</p>

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So a student goes to a research university as opposed to a LAC in order to punch a clock? Gag me with a spoon. </p>

<p>If I often think that people talk up HYPSM too much, it’s nothing like the arrogance on display by LAC boosters here. And for the record, I have on HYPSM grad and one LAC grad.</p>

<p>“The only national, liberal arts university that ranks among the top 10 overall per capita for graduate Ph.D. production is the University of Chicago.”</p>

<p>See my numerous prior posts re: per capita, I get tired of re-writing the same thing.
Evidently others don’t.</p>

<p>Q: "How many top engineering professors did you actually come to know at Wesleyan, that so benefitted you as a human being?? "</p>

<p>A:“there were none.”</p>

<p>Another point from my personal experience, as a liberal arts major at Cornell I took several engineering courses along the way, and did in fact come to know several engineering professors. This exposure and coursework facilitated my entrance to an engineering graduate program there. This sequence of events would have been much less likely had I pursued my liberal arts studies at an institution that did not offer studies in this other area. There were other colleges there that I chose not to involve myself with, but that was my own election. If my interests had swerved otherwise, they were there for me as well. </p>

<p>In situations where one cannot perfectly anticipate how things will go, its nice to have more options one can elect, rather than fewer. There may indeed be so many options, you can’t possibly know them all, so what. Things that may hold no interest for you at the outset may look differently later on, if only they are present.</p>

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<p>I didn’t SAY that! Didn’t I say that a “life of the mind” could be equally had by the student who goes on to the business world upon graduation, the student who goes on to get a PhD, the student who gets a professional degree such as MD or JD, etc.?
It’s a MINDSET that I said could be equally had at an LAC or a university.
And it’s a mindset that doesn’t particularly care about “prestige,” impressing other people, or making the very mostest money.</p>

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<p>I never said they did. I never said those headed for LACs were necessarily more interested in the life of the mind than those heading to a uni.</p>

<p>‘So does it mean that people go to HYPSM for the football or the country club atmosphere? Gimme a break!’</p>

<p>maybe not HYPSM but, certainly, many choose their future university based on the power of certain sports programs (non athletes, i mean). this, at least, was the case with several of my kids friends. one chose the school based on parking availability and closet space of first year dorms! the choice was finally narrowed down to a university and a LAC. the LAC won out. . .no ‘life of the mind’ considerations;-)</p>

<p>I think it’s more than a little pretentious, however, to pretend that at an LAC you’re magically any more likely to know the professors outside your own area of study. YK, there’s nothing magical about an LAC which means that the Classics major can get to know the Medieval History profs any more than at a research uni. It’s up to the person to make those connections as he or she sees fit, not the environment.</p>

<p>And it’s a little odd to say that the benefit of the LAC is that you can make those connections outside your field and then diss a research uni which offers even MORE opportunities to make connections outside your field.</p>

<p>Re post 417:</p>

<p>Indeed, when one reads posts about the reasons why students choose one school over another, things like " social scene" “school spirit” “food” “having one’s own room,” location, and other utterly non-academic considerations loom large. I have yet to read a high school senior enthusing about the “life of the mind” in evidence at any college s/he is considering.</p>

<p>“So does it mean that people go to HYPSM for the football or the country club atmosphere?”</p>

<p>I don’t think so. I think it means that football and country club are the antithesis of the Reed experience.</p>

<p>“I think it’s more than a little pretentious, however, to pretend that at an LAC you’re magically any more likely to know the professors outside your own area of study.”</p>

<p>I don’t think so, and it’s not magic. At Reed, at least (since it seems to be the LAC example here), students have regular one-on-ones with most profs of most classes. It’s not difficult to arrange when classes average 14 students.</p>