<p>Pizzagirl:</p>
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<p>It’s a start. It goes back to my original point, which had to do with curiosity. Also, I’m not sure I would agree that all learning takes place in a class. ;)</p>
<p>“Agreed, but it’s a long time ago since the thread was about “what will others think of my choices” and, as so often happens, it’s become “life of the mind” LACs vs. careerist pre-professional unis.”</p>
<p>Indeed, way back at #302 by, let’s see, … “marite” Rings a bell. ;)</p>
<p>indeed, I did; 
But already, the thread was about the well-rounded students at LACs vs. the would-be lawyers, doctors and masters of the universe at HYP and athletes apparently everywhere else if one went only by some of the posts on this thread.</p>
<p>I really struck out with both LAC and uni.
My kids are never going to be lawyers, doctors, or masters of the universe and they have no discernible interest in sports. And each is lopsided in his own way. They just went where they thought they would enjoy spending four years getting a good education.</p>
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No, not at all. Elsewhere, I’ve cited such statistics.</p>
<p>As I said in the quoted post, I think the per capita Ph.D. production rate is one way to measure outcomes, and by that measure, LACs do well. Actually, I don’t think it’s an ideal indicator of quality. However, I cannot think of a direct way to take a pulse on the “life of the mind”. Maybe by reading all the great faculty articles published in Science and Nature?</p>
<p>^^ Wow, that “quote within a quote” is so cool! I am in awe.</p>
<p>agreed, i’m still trying to figure out how to get the gray box thing going. . .</p>
<p>For the quote box, write
[noparse]
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and it will come out
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<p>We’ve already dissected ad nauseum the difference between the science major at the LAC and the science major at the research uni who may have more access to labs and expensive facilities. OK, got it.</p>
<p>But aside from that …
How, fundamentally, is being a Classics major at a LAC of 4,000 fundamentally different from being a Classics major at the liberal-arts-and-sciences college of 4,000 that resides with a research uni of 8,000, except that the latter might have an Engineering student or an Architecture student or a Business student as a roommate?</p>
<p>Is there anyone who can articulate a difference?
Again, assuming equal caliber student bodies and so forth.</p>
<p>OK, vossron, now how did you get it to show the quote and /quote without doing the gray box?? I missed that class at my uni :-)</p>
<p>thanks vossron, i’m a true luddite;-)</p>
<p>10 characters
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<p>Yay! I did it!!</p>
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<p>Marite, this reminds me of a cartoon. There is a statue of a big, heroic, barrel-chested man astride a magnificent horse. The inscription reads, “SOLDIER, STATESMAN, SCHOLAR, INVENTOR, PHILANTHROPIST. AND STILL A DISAPPOINTMENT TO HIS MOTHER.”</p>
<p>Do I have to divulge all the secrets? </p>
<p>[noparse][noparse]
[/noparse][/noparse]</p>
<p>It’s all here: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/misc.php?do=bbcode[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/misc.php?do=bbcode</a></p>
<p>Pizzagirl, if we are talking HYPSM as the “research university”, then the primary difference for an undergrad will be the greater chance of being taught by a grad student instead of an experienced professor. Some grad students make excellent teachers, but others fumble their way through their first few semesters before finding their footing. If you are talking about a pre-professional university with different undergraduate schools (business, engineering, journalism), you may discover that you don’t have the same accessibility to classes, particularly upper level ones, in those schools. For example, if you are a Classics major and want to take classes in the business school, many may not be available to you, either because they are reserved for majors only or because the prerequisites for a certain course fall within a core business (or journalism or whatever) curriculum that is laid out semester by semester, year by year.</p>
<p>In reality, however, most students won’t notice the difference except for the size of the university. Besides, a classics major may want to stay as far away as possible from business or journalism. A business major may not want to take courses in the CAS. An engineering student may be ecstatic that she doesn’t have to take a foreign language.</p>
<p>It really is all about size and philosophy.</p>
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<p>Ummm, not my kids! 
But if one wants illustrations of the benefits or downsides of a LAC vs. a Uni, neither is going to be poster boy. Still, they both got a good education that suited their individual needs.</p>
<p>Momwaitingfornew: Not true of S2’s experience. While he had TFs leading his sections, he also shared classes with graduate students and actually got to know more profs than his more reticent brother at the latter’s LAC. Some of his classes had 1( him), 2, 4, 11, 15 & >20 students (including grad students). He had only one class, a tutorial, that was taught by a TF and it was great. It was on a topic outside the standard curriculum about which the TF was doing his research. S chose to take that tutorial–it was not mandatory. His friend got to intern for two world-class profs, both in fields not his own, by dint of talking to them after lecture in a class they co-taught it was a large class, and there were TFs. But it was no barrier to getting to know the profs).</p>
<p>Pizzagirl: There aren’t that many LACs that have 4,000 students, unless you start counting Dartmouth, Georgetown and places like that. I know of a couple, but a more common size for LACs is more like 2,000. And, by the same token, the smallest size a real research university comes in is probably 5,000 undergraduates. So the more realistic comparison is probably twice as many undergraduates, and a fair number of grad students around.</p>
<p>Differences – maybe 4x the number of faculty in the department, plus graduate students who may do significant teaching, especially on areas they know a lot about (i.e., their thesis topics). More outside lecturers coming through. It’s a much bigger, somewhat less personal community, and relationships with grad students may be important. Plus, a research university, especially a big-deal one, probably has a library that dwarfs that of the LAC, and since they aren’t making new original materials in Classics at a high rate, the library can still be significant as a research resource.</p>
<p>The Williams College Classics department has 5 faculty, one of whom also teaches Jewish Studies, a couple of Emeriti, and of course “associated” faculty in other departments (the Philosophy prof who teaches the pre-Socratics and Plato, the Art History prof who teaches classical sculpture). They, and all Classics majors can and do fit in someone’s living room – probably fewer than 20 people at any particular time. It’s intimate, and personal, and you are limited by what your teachers can teach. What with sabbaticals and such, there are probably no more than 4-5 non-basic-language courses actually taught each semester.</p>
<p>The Cornell Classics Department has 19 faculty and three post-docs, plus an equal number of graduate students, plus the same number of Emeriti and associated faculty that Williams has. The number of undergraduates in Arts and Sciences is a little less than four times what Williams has. The Classics community is probably at least 100 people. That’s a lot more people to talk to, and you don’t get tired of seeing the same faces in every class. There are probably 15-20 non-basic courses offered each semester. The professors are a little more distant, and you spend a certain amount of time drinking with grad students and listening to them whine about their lives, and also explain what they are working on for their theses.</p>
<p>Edit: I went back and checked. This spring, the Williams Classics Department offered 6 courses other than Intro Greek and Intro Latin. The Cornell Classics Department offered 25 courses, not counting any introductory or intermediate language courses (which include Sanskrit), senior essay seminars, independent study, or directed reading (all of which I assume Williams also has some version of). Seminars on Pindar, on Homeric Philology, on Paranoia and Conspiracy Theory in Ancient Rome. It’s a much, much richer array.</p>
<p>"Is there anyone who can articulate a difference?
Again, assuming equal caliber student bodies and so forth. "</p>
<p>My guess is generally the U will have more profs in the field ,will offer more courses than the LAC, particularly upper level classes; will cover more subareas, more comprehensively than the LAC; will offer more sections of the same courses than the LAC, will offer courses more frequently (eg not every other year, or less). And the LAC will have smaller classes. The U may have some truly large intro classes, with grad students leading recitation sections. </p>
<p>The actual situation would need to be reviewed in each case though, not just assumed.</p>
<p>Marite, it all goes back to the “all universities are different” idea. I tried to generalize without being absolute. Of course, much depends on what the student does, and what department he is in, and what profs he gets.</p>
<p>But you have next to zero likelihood of being taught by a grad student in an LAC. At a research university, you have a much better chance. As I said, however, not all grad students are inferior instructors; some are quite good.</p>
<p>JHS makes a wonderful point. In more obscure disciplines, it may be better to find a larger university simply because the range of classes and professors might be larger, although, again, you must check out the specifics of each. If a student prefers a more cozy learning environment, he might appreciate the six faculty members who all know him by name and invite him to picnics at their houses.</p>
<p>Why is it a better learning experience if the faculty member knows you by name and invites you to dinner?</p>