<p>idad - Chicago has managed to keep a sense of an undergrad COLLEGE vs. just an undergrad program… I can’t say the same about Harvard, given academic quality surveys and such, but feel free to provide evidence otherwise.</p>
<p>I would not consider all students and parents “the most sophisticated consumers.” Anecdotally, I know a number of LACs that attract a disproportionate number of “faculty brats”–who are presumably more knowledgeable and sophisticated about higher education than the average Joe-to-be.</p>
<p>JHS #19 - I don’t disagree with choosing Wesleyan over Harvard. The two are “fits” for very different people. Rhodes over Amherst, however, is an palpable difference (in the resources that money will buy, if nothing else).</p>
<p>I’m not sure where cellardweller is getting the NRC data for “top” graduate school admissions; the provided link is broken. But here is historical PHD productivity, courtesy of Reed:</p>
<p>All Disciplines:
Caltech
**Harvey Mudd<a href=“technical%20LAC”>/b</a>
Swarthmore
Reed
MIT
Carleton
Oberlin
Bryn Mawr
UChicago
Grinnell
7/10 are LACs, 6/7 if you disqualify the tech schools.</p>
<p>Biological Sciences:
Caltech
Reed
Swarthmore
**Harvey Mudd<a href=“tech.%20LAC”>/b</a>
UChicago
MIT
Kalamazoo
Earlham
Grinnell
Princeton
6/10 or 5/7.</p>
<p>Mathematics and Statistics:
Caltech
**Harvey Mudd<a href=“tech.%20LAC”>/b</a>
Reed
MIT
UChicago
Harvard
Pomona
Princeton
Rice
St. John’s College
4/10, counting Rice as a university (at only 3k undergrads, it’s hovering on the line), or 3/7.</p>
<p>Chemistry:
**Harvey Mudd<a href=“tech.%20LAC”>/b</a>
Caltech
Wabash
Reed
Carleton
Grinnell
Wooster
NM Institute Mining & Tech.
Franklin & Marshall
Bowdoin
Assuming that #8 is not an LAC: a whopping 8/10 or 7/7.</p>
<p>Physics:
Caltech
**Harvey Mudd<a href=“tech.%20LAC”>/b</a>
MIT
Reed
UChicago
Rice
Princeton
NM Institute Mining & Tech.
Carleton
Case Western
Only 3/10 or 2/5, but note the small size of Rice and Case Western.</p>
<p>A more relevant statistic would be comparing the ratio of number of PHDs attained compared to number of students who want PHDs. Otherwise the numbers merely reflect on the preferences of the student body. It would be like the amount of MBAs produced by Swarthmore compared to, say, Wharton.</p>
<p>Michael Bay = Wesleyan grad (as I just learned) who directed, among other things, the two Transformers movies, Armageddon, The Rock, the two Bad Boys movies, and such like. He’s had one movie since 1995 that didn’t gross over $100 million. Actor and producer, too. He probably COULD get Spielberg to hire someone. But I’m not counting on a whole bunch of Festschrifts for him.</p>
<p>If one looks at the undergraduate degrees of students in certain programs, it looks like musical chairs among Harvard, MIT, Chicago, Stanford, Berkeley, Princeton and Yale. These institutions tend to admit one another’s graduates, with a sprinkling of graduates of LACs or some other top universities, both private and public. And in certain disciplines, international students are represented in overwhelming numbers.</p>
<p>^^^ I am not aware of any surveys that asked entire colleges–repeatedly, each year–whether a student “wanted” a Ph.D. That would be a better metric, but also an impossible one. Swarthmore’s student body overwhelmingly prefers to attain Ph.Ds; therefore, if one is a prospective student set on that goal, it would be a good choice.</p>
<p>dstark, if Williams got 20,000 applicants when they can only accept about 1,000 that would dethrone Harvard from being the hardest University to get into. Harvard wouldn’t like that very much.</p>
<p>I have a good friend that went to Reed. He has the look of a mad scientist. Not much hair on top. Hair sticking out of the sides of his head. Loved the school. Smart guy.</p>
<p>I don’t know how to interpret the Ph.D. productivity. It certainly shows that some schools prepare their students well for graduate studies. But it does not show that schools that do not rank high do not prepare their own students just as well. First, we are considering only Ph.D. rather than law or med school which attract substantial numbers of students. Second, I have come to realize that some highly qualified students do not even go to grad school (I’m speaking of people graduating summa or magna). I know at least three who are working for non-profit organizations, for instance. Two, by the way are from H, and one is from a LAC.</p>
<p>I think it’s a mark of sophistication when a student considers an LAC or more off-the-beaten-path but excellent school.</p>
<p>Case in point: My nephew, a rising senior who attends a prestigious day school, was interested in Stanford and Penn (Wharton). OK, great choices; I have a soft spot for Penn myself. But then he also started exploring Claremont McKenna. To me, that made me think – wow, someone – whether him or the GC – has really done the homework and is thinking about off-the-beaten-path choices (from a midwestern perspective). How much more in-the-know than the person who just blindly says Stanford, Penn, off we go. Whether or not he chooses Claremont McKenna isn’t the point. The point is that he already HAS enough social standing and self-confidence not to CARE that he’d have to explain Claremont McKenna to the guy at the drycleaners. </p>
<p>Perhaps dstark isn’t aware for that people in the know, off-the-beaten-path can still be prestigious. Maybe dstark is still all about “what will everyone THINK?”</p>
<p>And that’s precisely what frustrates me about my GC’s at my kids’ suburban public high school. Yeah, they will have heard of Stanford, Penn, whatever … But I bet they haven’t heard of Claremont McKenna or Haverford, because they’re too busy dealing with the nuances of our directional state schools which is where most kids will wind up. And that’s frustrating because their job is to be in the know. Not to parrot what schools the guy at the drycleaners has heard of.</p>
<p>As the parent of a graduate of a top rated LAC I can tell you that the reaction of random people to Williams’ name is downright puzzling. This is true in America and in Asia where I live. Even among American friends and colleagues – almost all of whom are college educated – I’d say only one of ten has ever even heard of Williams. This is not a matter of negative perception; it is no perception at all.</p>
<p>The other 10% are usually wildly complimentary – which is heartening and does balance out the many blank stares and even sympathetic looks that I’ve received in response to my son’s choice of undergraduate school. I’m going to enjoy the reaction to his graduate school, Cornell, big ivy league world renowned, though deep in my heart, I know that he couldn’t possibly have had a better experience, both educationally and socially, than he had at Williams.</p>
<p>All of my son’s friends from the class of 07, who have applied to graduate school, were accepted at excellent universities, some top programs, all good programs. Those that have chosen to work for a while before furthering their education have also done well in finding jobs or public service opportunities that were appealing to them, even in this rotten economy. </p>
<p>Small LACs are not for everyone; however, size is not the determining factor in the eyes of graduate school admissions and employers.</p>
<p>Exactly. Why woudn’t that be enough for some people? Why is it so critical that everyone have to “know” their school? It’s so status-chasing. And to be a status-chaser like that – not choosing a school for the education, but because “other people think it’s really cool!” is the very DEFINITION of not having status in the first place. Why else are the immigrant parents on CC so obsessed with hitting only a handful of top schools and completely ignoring the rest? Because they’re not confident in their status in the US, and they mistakenly think that most commonly known equals the only things that are status-y.</p>
<p>Keilexandra: I know little about the undergrad program at Harvard, only that students apply to the college, and not the university.</p>
<p>According to the admissions folks, CMC has for the last couple of years achieved 100% placement in a student’s first or second choice law school and nearly as good for med school. Not too bad, no matter what the absolute numbers are. Few universities can claim those numbers.</p>
<p>PersonallY I think many LAC students simply like academics and the atmosphere of college and learning. Makes sense to me they stay in it as long as they can and try to become professors and earn the highest degree possible.</p>
<p>Meanwhile many University Students go for engineering, pharmacy, accounting, legal and other professional training careers. They see college as training for a career and the highest degree is not on the radar for many. College is simply a means to an end. PHD not required.</p>
<p>I think the PHD numbers compare apples to oranges and the PHD chest pounding is silly as the LACS and Universities attract different students with different goals to some extent.</p>
<p>My sons are engineers and found the LACS very limiting and not appealing for that major.</p>
<p>^ A good generalization. Note, however, the frequency that Chicago–a university–shows up on the PHD lists. They are indicative of campus culture.</p>
<p>Again, it says little about the quality of education that some schools show up on Ph.D. lists more frequently than some others since we do not know what are the post-college goals of the graduates. It may be indicative of campus culture, but not of educational excellence as such.</p>
<p>To give an example from quite some time ago. I have a friend who belongs to a large family of immigrants. She is the eldest. She got a B.A. and a Ph.D. in econ from Berkeley, one of the most prestigious econ programs in the country, and went on to teach at a prestigious LAC. Two years later, her brother graduated summa in econ from Harvard and immediately was recruited by a Wall Street firm. If we looked at their post-college career alone, one might say that Berkeley is more successful (produced one Ph.D.) than Harvard (only B.A.) But clearly, both sister and brother made different career choices. There is every reason to believe that had he decided to apply to grad school, the summa cum laude in econ brother would have been admitted into a top grad program, just like his sister. But he did not (and right away, made more money on Wall Street with his B.A. in econ than his sister with her Ph.D. and position at a prestigious LAC). The other siblings in that family are: lawyer, doctors, engineer, artist, all graduates of top undergraduate programs.</p>
<p>In the city where I live, there is a non-flagship state school that has strengths in medicine and the sciences associated with medicine. There is also a small private liberal arts college.</p>
<p>The LAC is more prestigious than the state school. Suburban, upper middle-class families from the surrounding area whose children do well in school tend to pick the LAC over the state school, even though both are in a very urban environment.</p>
<p>What is so interesting is that these same families boast about the ‘research opportunities’ at the LAC–but what this means is that the LAC has an arrangement where you can do research with profs at the state school.</p>