Are More Selective Colleges More Academically Difficult?

That’s too oversimplified. The problem is that - at least at research universities - a department’s reputation is mostly based on the the quality of its faculty and their research. This is closely tied to the quality of their graduate program. It has almost nothing directly to do with the quality of the undergraduate education in the department. So if the school’s overall reputation is different from the department’s, the question is why and does that even impact the undergraduate program in that department.

For example, the EE or CS departments at Urbana Champagne have a stronger reputation than the university as a whole. Those departments have used their reputation to raise admissions standards for high school applicants into those majors relative to the rest of the university. In a case like that the department’s reputation matters more. On the other side of the fence, the University of Minnesota had a very strong economics department … multiple Nobel Prizes and the like. But their undergraduate majors aren’t nearly as stellar, so you’d treat their undergraduate applicants based more on the school’s overall reputation than the department’s unless a very strong recommendation letter was submitted.

Of course, the real answer is that you’re trying to judge each individual student’s future potential. It’s a case by case decision based on their record within the specific school and department.

droppedit@ thanks for your input. S worked his butt off in college. From Sophomore through Senior year he never went to bed before 4 or 5 in the morning and was up by 8 for classes. He worked 40 hours a week for his internships and his company, while taking 20-21 c credits per quarter. His started his full time job in February of Senior year, missing a week of school to travel on business. He never got a week vacation until 15 months into his new job. So if he wants to treat himself to a race car, I say all the more power to him.

There are many examples of colleges which “punch above their weight” in terms of the rigor (of certain schools, majors, and programs) being “well known” to large corporate employers of being superior, regardless of the public perception.

Georgia Tech, UT, UIUC, Missouri M&T, Drexel, George Mason-- and not just in tech or STEM where it’s “easier” to get a fix on the skillset and “level” of a new grad…

This is a known reality among companies which evaluate and hire thousands of new grads around the world.

What does that mean for a particular kid?

That it’s complicated. Every single college in America (yes, including Yale and Stanford as referenced above) has kids majoring in beer pong. It has students who will gravitate towards the easiest major, take the easiest classes, do an independent study with a professor who is emeritus and only shows up once a month, and will focus on their social life, taking selfies (is that still a thing?) and never breaking a sweat academically.

So what?

Folks on CC like to bash the humanities as basketweaving. Employers aren’t hiring kids who graduate from Princeton with degrees in philosophy as window dressing- philosophy is a tough, analytically challenging major at Princeton and those kids perform exceptionally well in complicated jobs which require mastering lots of new material really quickly. Will that same company hire a kid who majored in philosophy from U New Haven or Framingham State? Not likely.

It depends and it’s complicated.

Parents need to help their kids find the sweet spot between subjects that really interest them (few people do well majoring in something that bores them to tears) AND figuring out how to get their resume plucked from a pile. It’s not rocket science, but endlessly bashing the road not taken (everyone at Harvard is a lazy preppy; everyone at U C Santa Cruz is a genius) is a dumb way to help your kid. And parents- reality check- the world doesn’t need a poorly trained and disinterested (fill in the blank- RN, electrical engineer, CPA). If your kid has no inclination towards a certain discipline, you are creating an artificial hurdle to their eventual economic independence. If your kid really, really, really loves ethnomusicology, trust me- he or she can major in that and still find gainful employment at the other end.

Will your kid get one of the 12 jobs in the US that are hiring that year in ethnomusicology? Probably not. But getting an internship at the Smithsonian or another major musical archive is a good thing anyway… even if your kid ends up working at a PR agency or insurance company in marketing or sales.

As pointed out by another poster, sometimes the academic schedule and credit requirements alone make for a more rigorous environment. Both my older kids attended quarter system schools, so they completed more course material in a shorter period of time, and more classes per year than at other schools. For example, at my younger D’s good but not elite LAC, she will only have to take 4 classes a semester, for a total of 8 per academic year. Her Ivy brother and Stanford sister had to take 4 or 5 each quarter–so a minimum of 16 more classes total than younger D will. At my top 30 LAC, we took 9-11 course per year.

There is a tendency here with respect to certain issues toward black and white when reality is gray. Presumably there is comfort in black/white which doesn’t exist with its not clear/varies by situation concepts. Maybe at least in part its because college is a black and white choice: I go to college A and not to any others (putting grad school and transfers aside). And presumably self validation seeking as well.

@TheGFG : Agree that studying on the quarter system at an elite/rigorous school/program is like drinking from a firehouse. Many times, profs or classmates with friends at other colleges said that the material we cover in a quarter was the same amount that was covered in a semester elsewhere.

@al2simon & @ucbalumnus: Note that UIUC admits by major and it’s tough to transfer in to CS or engineering if you weren’t admitted in to there.
I don’t think Minny admits by major in to their arts & science majors.

@saillakeerie : I think a lot is self-validation lol. Did you see how in @PurpleTitan’s output based thread, so many people got offended or tried to bring in metrics that would make a school they know of either relevant or more relevant than before in the list instead of trying to explain why something is a certain way and maybe where it can improve? This was especially the case for some of the elite privates that either a) did not get representation or b) were ranked well, but behind or with some schools that were gasp…public and not “elite” public. I guess one can call it school pride, but to me it isn’t real school pride so much as wanting to believe that breaking the bank for a specific place was the perfect choice and that they attend the perfect school. And the level of defense put up by some ultimately revealed that the person was more into prestigiosity (they wanted to make sure that most privates that rank high in USNWR were doing as well on that list). And then on CC in general, you also have the ridiculous pandering that occurs in the elite school threads where students, alumni, try to steer a poster toward that school over other places they are considering even if the other places are actually better for their personality type or academic interests. Some just portray this mantra of “no, come here we are perfect for everyone and even though your other choices are much better at x,y, and z, this experience is better/more fun/less stressful”(things usually having nothing to do with academic quality or even cost). It is almost as if threads around this time of the year function as de facto yield events/machines. And whatever you do, do not dare try to point out the pandering.

My motto, like it or not is to tell the students the strength and potential weaknesses of the school (whether mine or anywhere else) and whether or not they can fit based upon their interests and personality. It is not to try to yield all of them. Sometimes I even suggest considering other places if they are big into a certain aspect or don’t seem like the type that would be satisfied at my alma mater. But others and theirs…they will get on here and lie almost to get that person to choose their place over another. It is super selfish because it seems like those who do that are more interested in boosting the schools prestige by enhancing the yield in such a fashion. While I think there are a very few that have the misguided belief that their top college is perfect for everyone, many are just being straight up disingenuous.

However, where quarter system schools have students take more total courses, the courses are “smaller”. For example, a typical one year single variable calculus sequence with 30 weeks of instruction can be divided into two 15 week semesters or three 10 week quarters.

@ucbalumnus: And sometimes, they still try to cram in as much material in 10 weeks as would be covered in 15 weeks elsewhere.

Granted, this would vary by school.
An elite on a quarter system certainly calls for good time management, however (in some year-long science sequences, there are 9 finals & midterms total; typically, after the first week or two of a quarter, you have a major test or project or paper due every week).

At an English uni, you may only take 12 classes/modules total your entire undergraduate career. But at the top ones, you have to cover a lot in those classes and your marks come down to tests on them at the end of the year or even career.
At Oxbridge, for the most part, your marks come down solely to tests after your 3 years there.

In other words, you are using undergraduate admission selectivity of the student’s school, or major if the major is significantly more selective than the school, as one of the proxy factors in determining how likely the student is worthy of admission to your PhD program, correct?

@ucbalumnus However, as a counter-example to courses being “smaller”, UCSB for their standard math sequence uses 2 quarters to cover Calc 1 & 2, one quarter of Linear Alg, one quarter of DiffEq, and 2 quarters of Multivariable. So, multivariable is slowed down from the 1 semester standard but regular calc is sped up slightly.

Note that there is a range of selectivity in colleges that have the quarter system. At the upper end, you have Stanford, Caltech, UChicago. In the mid-range you have all the UCs other than Berkeley and Merced. I’m sure there are others, but I haven’t researched.

Overall for this thread, my answer is that if you were able to graph selectivity vs academic difficulty, you would get a scatter plot with a statistically significant trend toward selective colleges being more difficult. But, there would be a large number of outliers. Each data point would have large error bars based on major and individual professors.

http://www.planetbauer.com/colleges.htm is a list of quarter system colleges. It is not necessarily a complete list. For example, there are three community colleges in California on the quarter system (Lake Tahoe, De Anza, Foothill) that are not in that list.

@ucbalumnus: Actually, the rigor of the undergraduate education.
I think an undergrad Minny econ major who was doing well in Minny’s PhD-level econ courses would impress.

So @al2simon’s what about engineering grads from schools like Purdue and A&M that aren’t too hard to get in to but heavily weed out. How do they do in PhD admissions?

@ucbalumnus An aside: The three community colleges you mention are listed in the 2-year colleges section at the end of the page. So, this does appear to be a fairly complete list. Thanks. Certainly the list shows that many quarter-based colleges are not known for academic difficulty.

@Ynotgo : Yes, basically a set of clusters along the line. But then the selectivity would more so be based upon GPA and scores since admit rate is tricky (like Chicago had a self-selected/niche pool of applicants before). Also, I feel as if you would have to do this before or after a certain time period because some schools are kind of frozen in time for their curriculum and rigor and some aren’t. Whether you are talking the super elite, elite, competitive, average, and not so competitive clusters. Within each cluster, it seems to just vary by department or institutional goals. Lately the undergraduate curriculum has been the last thing on the mind of most depts and schools. Also, today favors freedom and choice for the consumer, I mean student. So many (even elite) schools with much more rigorous and stringent gen. eds did away with them and substituted for a much more watered down ‘a la carte’ version.

As a result, students at schools much more academically rigorous on average have greater choice on whether to engage that rigor. I would argue, my alma mater, Emory, was more rigorous before it axed the old gen. ed requirements (which looked more like a core because there were a very minimal number of courses per requirement) and generally before the recession. After the recession, electives in STEM departments dried up in comparison to before and I think the funding for the scattering of curriculum innovations was badly effected (many of these interesting electives that had a lot of rigor were funded by say NSF or HHMI STEM education project funding). In addition, the school had honors courses in many departments much like super elite peers prior to the recession but afterwards, they are basically non-existent. You have many “lone wolves” that choose to run a STEM course like an honors course in the field, but they serve the masses as opposed to a more select crowd of students. I believe some of the other elite privates I have investigated had a similar thing going on.

I remember comparing Vanderbilt’s bioscience offerings (outside of BME, the actual bsci dept) and was quite impressed in say…2010 or so (Emory was struggling to have stable electives by then because it increased the enrollment to deal with the crisis, yet still wanted to keep comparatively small section sizes of the general biology, chemistry, and physics courses, so resources were essentially wasted down there on gateway courses), but then it seems theirs kind of diminished as well (likely for purely budgetary reasons or lack of demand). As the “recovery” happened, Emory is in pretty good shape (stable electives and a reorientation toward more quantitative options in them, implementation of primary literature discussion sections in intermediate courses). This just shows that even the economy can effect the curricula offered at these schools. Selectivity will not save you from demand and budgetary issues, elite or not. Of course at super wealthy schools like most of the super elites, the College of Arts and Letters unit can take a hit without the curricula being effected, but many or most other schools seem not to have that luxury.

There is also planning and administrative pressure: Keep in mind that not all your really elite and super elite schools were at the level they were today academically. For example, Duke appears to have added rigor (econ. is an example. Dartmouth apparently changed its economics courses to be very rigorous as well) and tiering in key areas that made them more similar to super elite peers and Ivies and currently does a lot to keeps its College curriculum fresh even in terms of gen. ed requirements and expectations. My school has a current president (who was provost) that has the agenda of truly aligning many departments curricula with research interests of the faculty and research in general, so you get cases where departments like Political Science (yes, a social science not a STEM dept) are pressured to change in a way that makes the major technically more stringent and rigorous. Like there are now intermediate courses and students are required to concentrate in a field as opposed to the going through motions a la carte way of fullfilling a polisci major. They do all the intros. pick an intermediate in the area of concentration, take necessary stats AND a methods course, and then take an upper division research based course in the field of concentration (unlike how history departments at most elites require some colloquia that have heavy writing or research component, this seems not to be a common req. for political science majors). Basically some depts make choices that make a greater share of students engage academic rigor (what I consider the good type. One that focuses on content mastery but also asks the students to be sure that they can apply it to nuanced situations or do research in a field. Basically rigor that further builds an analytical mastery as well).

They also “blackmailed” (lol) chemistry (which already had a lot of rigor at intermediate and lower division) into doing similar reforms that are much more dramatic (like a Euro system style curriculum) as a requirement to help pay for the new building that was completed like 2 years ago. Without this sort of pressure and change, many departments, will simply not keep up with their student bodies, especially if they grow more elite. You end up with a tier of elite schools that are certainly more challenging than average, but could be doing much more, especially in cases where the scores have risen even further from when they were initially considered elite (you get rising grades and relatively happy students though). It takes a lot of effort to prevent the inertia because again, professors who were just average rigor before will rarely, on their own with no incentive, start teaching more rigorously than in the past because the new crowd is great. They will just watch their grades rise and say “oh how wonderful!”.

*I am kind of curious to look more at what changes some places that were considered just elite before did to their undergraduate curricula (if anything) to make their undergraduate programs considered very or super elite today. Unfortunately, today, I cannot use current selectivity metrics as a proxy for those doing something significant because there are cases in the top 20 USNews where admit rate are at record lows and SATs are super high all the sudden, yet nothing much has happened/changed to the curricula in any departments. The admissions and communications department simply marketed itself better. I am just wondering how some of the top 10s got to where they are today other than being gifted with lots of money (some of these now have lower incoming stats than peers outside of the top 10, yet most know that the academics are generally more rigorous at that top 10 school). Was it like Chicago, where the rigor was always there and they just needed to market or play the rankings game better, or did something trigger a change in the actual undergraduate education that led to a rise that is explained more than by “greatness in, greatness out”.

Bernie, it’s not just about the curriculum and the requirements. There are also market changes which can cause shifts in “rigor”.

Take a look at undergrad business programs – where quality and rigor are all over the map. Students at places like Haas and Wharton who are interested in finance take “hard” classes requiring a lot of quantitative analysis, econometrics, etc. even if their particular concentration or major allows them to take more content oriented classes to fulfill their degree. Why? Because they observe that the students who get the kind of jobs they want to get are the ones who take those classes (and career development at their college does an exceptional job of showing students what it takes to be competitive). Students at less rigorous business programs often do not even though the faculty do a bang up job teaching those classes, and they’d be significantly better served with analytical rigor and not just a lot of formulaic “this is the numerator and this is the denominator” kind of financial training.

That’s the market- not the curriculum. Yes, the students at Wharton are going to have higher math SAT scores coming in than kids from random college’s business school. And therefore the idea of a math and logic intensive sequence of courses isn’t going to spook them. But the idea that there are thousands (and believe me- there are tens of thousands) of “business majors” who really cannot perform numerical analysis in the way that the careers they think they are gunning for require-- that’s sad.

@blossom : Thanks for pointing that out. Gouizeta (sp?) at Emory has been seeing a similar trend where many of the much more ambitious students are majoring in finance (or accounting) and even double majoring in math, CS, or qtm in the college. Interestingly enough and a thing I have been thinking about is what can be said about the distribution of majors at a university. For example, Can I look at the “top 5 or 10” as listed by USNWR for each elite and gauge how pre-professional or ultra career oriented some student bodies are versus others. Like my school: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/emory-university-1564/academics . Suggests these students may be a little too intense or serious for their own good. Nothing to do with academic rigor but could partially explain some trends of students being able to tolerate or appreciate rigorous instructors more than expected (and thus there is no reason for a department not to “step it up” if you can. As long as instructors who teach rigorous are also decent teachers, they won’t be too dinged for it in evals).

Penn: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-pennsylvania-3378/academics

Similar pattern: A very serious crowd there.

Vanderbilt: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/vanderbilt-3535/academics

Serious I guess, but in a different, less pre-professional and STEM or “I am attending a rigorous b-school” bent way. I think many double major in the Interdisciplinary (HOD) program (many say this is easy, I don’t know). One could imagine students as generally less stressed than those being around strong students all pursuing traditional high paying career pathways (like I noticed these ultra competitive tendencies at my school. It was no JHU stereotype and academics are indeed collaborative, but folks obsess over comparing their progress to peers and will do anything to appear as if they are not falling behind others in terms of course requirements for their pre-prof. track, grades, or even ECs. It is almost a dangerous obsession along with tunnel vision and herd mentality). However, it may also mean that students like a challenge…to an extent. I would expect more inertia in terms of introducing changes that either reduce flexibility or increase rigor overall.

I am not equating pre-professional with rigor, Bernie. You can have a college where the top 5 majors include history, poli sci, and English (which was Yale up until a few years ago- it may still be) where those majors are plenty rigorous, and where you CAN’T major in business as an undergrad.

So just majoring or double majoring doesn’t tell the story.

My point was that students can seek out rigor in various ways- not all of which are “mandated” by changes to the curriculum by the administration.

I was a Classics major a thousand years ago and there were two foreign language proficiency tests required- one in either German or French, and the other in either Latin or Greek. However, I had classmates who were proficient in all four languages, plus Aramaic, Biblical Hebrew, and both Classical Greek and the more vernacular Greek likely spoken in the early years of the Common era.

Their preparation was MUCH more rigorous than mine was. However, most of them were heading towards either Divinity/Rabbinical school or a PhD in Antiquity/Classics/Archaeology. So whether by self selection (kids who are heading for a doctorate related to the ancient world are going to have a greater facility for languages than someone like myself who ended up getting an MBA) or advising (departmental professors explaining to students what it takes to get admitted and funded by competitive grad programs), the rigor ends up exceeding the written requirements.

@blossom : I am not either. I am just wondering if the distribution of majors can do something to tell about how willing a student body is to engage it at higher than normal levels assuming that the student body is already academically excellent. At many research U’s, the “big money” majors and tracks are often the ones that differ the most from less selective peers (partly due to them having the gatekeeper, I mean gateway lol courses you see everywhere else. You must of course employ more rigorous methods to “gatekeep” . Humanities, especially languages at elites certainly move way faster, but naturally you see a smaller distribution of grades. When you sign up for “big money” majors anywhere, but especially at elites, you are basically volunteering for a GPA penalty.).

Basically their disposition toward taking what are generally regarded as more rigorous majors and classes, I would think that a school that has a high proportion of student bodies pursuing “harder” tracks and majors, if it is low-balling it on the intensity, can very well afford to crank it up. I am by no means implying that the the departments are rigorous BECAUSE many take those routes. I am saying, in an ideal case, they should be. I know for a fact that biology majors at my school, many of the pre-health types, wiggle their way around the more difficult instructors and courses because the curriculum allows it and med. schools do not care. The question should be: why are there that many “alternate” options if the dept could afford to lose a couple of folks? There should not be the existence of a whole track of professors and courses that pitch softballs to students. They should fear the students much less, Or if this happens, implement an exit exam to assess whether students are getting something from the major, or a senior project. Something to prevent the curse of the “choice” to avoid a good education. In this case, many students likely expected intensity, but got spoiled when they found out there was a way around it even in supposedly “harder” majors.

Like if you attend any top 50 (and especially a top 30 or so or major engineering school/STEM university) university and elect to start in a STEM major, nursing/some health professional school, or go to the more rigorous b-schools and major in finance, an economics major, or even social sciences like political science, I doubt you go in expecting it to be easy. Research universities having a high proportion of these majors have no reason to not be rigorous (as in instructors should choose to pitch courses higher), especially in those disciplines. If they are not as popular, maybe that expectation will not be as clear (because let us be honest, often departmental resources are driven by enrollment. If students come in not expecting to major in it, and then find it more difficult than their tastes demand, they will just go elsewhere). The students are likely to go along for the ride regardless of how they pitch the courses because those majors are so well-established and one cannot honestly go in expecting them to be easy in the first place.

The distribution of majors can just hint at student expectations and predispositions and what a school can theoretically do because the students are de facto volunteering to do it. Places that provide nice “loopholes” and do not capitalize on that eagerness, whether done intentionally are not, you cannot expect optimal outcomes. Among research U’s that have these “serious” distributions, I am willing to bet that those that “push” the talent more or ensure that more of the talent is pushed (really in any discipline) perform better.

@bernie12 "Did you see how in @PurpleTitan’s output based thread, so many people got offended or tried to bring in metrics that would make a school they know of either relevant or more relevant than before in the list instead of trying to explain why something is a certain way and maybe where it can improve? This was especially the case for some of the elite privates that either a) did not get representation or b) were ranked well, but behind or with some schools that were gasp…public and not “elite” public. I guess one can call it school pride, but to me it isn’t real school pride so much as wanting to believe that breaking the bank for a specific place was the perfect choice and that they attend the perfect school. "

It is true that people naturally think their own school is better and try to defend it in any ranking that is done, even the one based entirely on @hunt 's opinion, which is amusing.

To me, @PurpleTitan 's ranking is more of a non-economic output ranking. When it aligns with the salary/economic data, as it does for MIT, Harvard, Stanford, it is really showing something meaningful.

However, when you consider The Economist median salaries 10 years after graduation from the 29 schools in the top 4 tiers of PT’s ranking, the range is from $36,200 at Reed College to $92,600 at MIT. A median salary difference to over 250% can’t be ignored as a factor in outcomes, in my mind.

Some of the schools in the 3rd and 4th tiers are doing very well on salary, with strong median incomes at Georgetown $83,300, Penn $78,600, Duke $76,700, Caltech $74,000, Columbia $72,900, Carnegie $72,000. A lot better on this factor than Swarthmore at $49,400, and, in fact most of the schools in Tier 1. To have an outcome ranking that is valuable for students and parents in the search and selection process, salary needs to be factored in.