Are pre-meds like college football players?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I know kids who took ALL the potential exams, GRE, GMAT, MCAT & LSAT. They proceeded to apply to the programs they were most interested in & proceeded from there. Those who don’t get into med school may do any number of other things, depending on their interest & major. Pre-med isn’t really a major at most places after all. Those who are realistic often try to have several options available as they recognize how very competitive med school admissions are.</p>

<p>My SIL was deciding between med school or several other options. Since she got into her 1st choice med school, she became a md; I’m sure she could have been wonderful at many other professions as well. I’m also sure she was not unusual at having a few back up options.</p>

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<p>Ginab591 wrote:</p>

<p>“…Since the national average of acceptance percent to med school is somewhere between 55-60% on the first try, I’d say most of your argument is built on false data and very generalizing otherwise.”</p>

<p>Where did this data come from? according to AMCAS in 2010 there were about 42,000 applicants to U.S. allopathic medical schools and about 18.000 of them were accepted for an acceptance rate of about 43%. In addition, the 42,000 actual applicants were likely a highly self-selected group with a far larger number of pre-med majors who were not URMs and had GPAs less than 3.4 and MCAT scores under 30 that realized actually applying would be a huge waste of time and money.</p>

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<p>*Meanwhile, the armies of pre-med students entering the nation’s universities overwhelmingly seem to have similar plans: major in biology because it includes the pre-med courses, and choose the easiest possible other courses in order to protect their GPAs. In the process, they learn enough for the MCAT, but the easiest possible courses do not come with that much additional learning. The focus on gaining admission to medical school takes precedence over everything else.</p>

<p>But most medical school applicants do not get into any medical school. So they are left graduating with biology degrees into a job market flooded by other unsuccessful pre-meds with biology degrees – not a good way to start a career.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>this is a problem which is why many colleges have “weeder” classes to get the lowish scoring kids out of “pre-med.” </p>

<p>Frankly, I cringe every time I see a sub ACT 29 (or SAT equivalent) student say that s/he is pre-med because the chances of such a person scoring high enough on the MCAT and having a high enough GPA to get into med school are not likely…unless the student is a URM. </p>

<p>where as students that are pre-med and take the MCAT have a 30% chance of going to med school.</p>

<p>That depends on who you’re including in the group of pre-med students. Are you only including those who make it as far as to take the MCAT and apply? If so, that’s not including a large number of students who were pre-med, but then realized at some point that they don’t have the GPA and likely ability to do well on the MCAT in order to have a good chance at acceptance. There is a LOT of weeding that goes on between freshmen and junior year. </p>

<p>However, I agree that the numbers between CollegeFB/NFL are not comparable to pre-med/med school.</p>

<p>And, I do agree that pre-med students DO need a back up plan…not only if they don’t get accepted, but also in case they just simply decide that med school isn’t right for them.</p>

<p>My pre-med son is an engineering student…so he does have a back up plan.</p>

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<p>Okay if the kid is URM, not okay if a white student, correct? Read last years med school threads, a 29 with spectacular ec’s got into med school.</p>

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<p>a 29 with spectacular ec’s got into med school</p>

<p>Are you referring to a student with a MCAT 29? Do you know if that person had a sub ACT 29 score (which means an ACT 28 or below…which was what my post was about).</p>

<p>But, even if the non-URM student did have a sub ACT 29 and later scored a MCAT 29 and got into med school with spectacular ECs, that kind of proves my point…that a typical student with a sub ACT 29 who scores a MCAT 29, is not likely going to get accepted. there is a correlation between ACT score and MCAT. If a student doesn’t score well on the ACT, it’s not likely he’ll score well on the MCAT.</p>

<p>And, I wasn’t talking about MCAT score; I was talking about ACT score. And, do we know what that student’s ACT score was?</p>

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<p>A major in football is more like a music major–relatively few people make it their career after college but both are getting a pre-professional educatin in that they are learning specific skills that are useful in larger industries in other capacities.</p>

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<p>Geez, I’m going to have to break this to my English major (Creative Writing) kid for whom Med school IS Plan B. IMO for a smart, hard working student with a track record of high achievement, trying be a writer for a living = wanting to play in the NFL, not Med school.</p>

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<p>This just comes to show you that everyone needs a backup plan… maybe football players and pre-med students more so than others!</p>

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<p>I just reread your post m2ck. Why would you cringe if a non URM scored below a 29 on ACT and said they wanted to go premed, but is okay if a URM says the same with a sub 29 score?
Racist, or just generalizing?</p>

<p>I’m wondering if you have two of your kids HS friends in front of you, they both say they want to go pre-med. One is black, one is white. They both have a 28 ACT. You cringe at the white student, while giving the black student a “go for it, good for you?” </p>

<p>How silly, you have NO idea how either of them are going to do in college. How many times do we hear on CC about late bloomers. The same ACT score for each student does not determine there future anymore than their skin color.</p>

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<p>Mom2CollegeKids: You answered the point very well. I wasn’t referring just to the students who apply to med schools, but was applying the analogy to the huge number of kids who enter college intending to be pre-med. </p>

<p>Of course, this can also be argued to be true for other fields. For example, how many theatre and music majors will actually end up in the movies, on tv or on Broadway? How many journalism students will actually become writers for national publications? How many political science majors will become legislators? There are certainly a few students in colleges around the country who will achieve those pinnacles of success in their chosen fields, but the majority will not. </p>

<p>That is why it’s important to be able to just smile and nod when a parent reports how perfect, brilliant and successful their kid(s) are, and whether the kids are loaded with artistic, athletic or academic talent.</p>

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<p>*I just reread your post m2ck. Why would you cringe if a non URM scored below a 29 on ACT and said they wanted to go premed, but is okay if a URM says the same with a sub 29 score?
Racist, or just generalizing?</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>Racist? Hardly.</p>

<p>The med school admit stats clearly show that non-URMs typically need to have a higher MCAT for admittance. This is generally speaking.</p>

<p>I know that you read the pre-med forum, so it isn’t news to you that being a URM is worth a few additional MCAT points. That’s not racist, that’s the facts.</p>

<p>That’s why when a male URM posted that he had something like a 32 MCAT, a high GPA, and other good stats, he was told by those who know a lot about med school acceptances that he could consider top med schools as sure acceptances and that he didn’t need to bother applying to any lower ranked med schools. No one would have said that to him if he wasn’t a male URM. You know that. Those posters weren’t being racists. They’ve seen the data. </p>

<p>You probably know that the AAMC publishes the data that backs this up.</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/157998/mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/157998/mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/161696/data/table19-mcatgpa-raceeth-2010-web.pdf.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/161696/data/table19-mcatgpa-raceeth-2010-web.pdf.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>So…that said…If a non-URM has a sub 29 ACT…his chances of scoring high enough on the MCAT (and having a high enough GPA), and getting into med school are not high. Are there some that will do it? Yes. I didn’t say that no non-URM with - say an ACT 24-28 - could get a MCAT high enough (and GPA) in order to get accepted. But, the fact is that his chances aren’t good (roughly in the 18 - 35% range), so if his degree won’t likely get him employed in some other profession, that’s a concern. </p>

<p>I’m wondering if you have two of your kids HS friends in front of you, they both say they want to go pre-med. One is black, one is white. They both have a 28 ACT. You cringe at the white student, while giving the black student a “go for it, good for you?”</p>

<p>Do you realize that pre-med advisors essentially do that? Do you realize that when advising 2 different student with the same stats…say 32 MCAT and 3.7 GPA…but one is a URM and one isn’t …the advisor is going to recommend that the URM can apply to more top schools and have a greater likelihood of admission? While the advisor would recommend that the non-URM apply to more “safer” schools (not that any med school would be a safety). </p>

<p>And, if the pre-med advisor had 2 other students with the same stats…say 28 MCAT and 3.4 GPA…but one was a URM and one wasn’t…do you realize that the advisor is going to be more cautionary about possible acceptances to the nonURM and be more positive about the chances for the URM? The advisor isn’t being racist…he/she is dealing with the reality of what the history of acceptances has shown. And, with those stats, it would show that a black student with those stats would have an 85% chance of acceptance (that is very good!) The nonURM would have a 35% chance of acceptance. Would the advisor be racist for knowing that info and using it to properly advise these students? And…If that advisor’s school has a Pre-Med Commitee, do you not think it’s possible that the nonURM might not even be given a Committee Letter? </p>

<p>In a similar vein, the same holds for female applicants. Being a woman is considered to be worth an additional MCAT point. Knowing that doesn’t make someone sexist.</p>

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<p>While some people speculate that the ACT score can somewhat predict a MCAT score, it is simply that, speculation. No need to “cringe” when a sub 29 non URM wants to follow a premed path. There have been many discussions here on CC about students, mostly males, being late bloomers.</p>

<p>Thanks for all the links and facts about URM’s and the MCAT. :rolleyes: As you said, you were referring to the ACT, not the MCAT.</p>

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<p>that might make some people want to have a white male doctor cutting on them… and i suppose that would make some people say that “some things never change”</p>