<p>
</p>
<p>Sure, but that is different from presenting an 800 in Chinese as evidence of academic accomplishment for admissions when you grew up using Chinese in the home.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But wouldn’t that imply that English is the student’s second language? (and Spanish or French or other language in high school would be the student’s third language)</p>
<p>^^^^ That indeed.</p>
<p>In order to perform well on the foreign language exams, the student must be able to read that language. For Chinese and other languages that do not use the Roman alphabet formal instruction would be absolutely required. Perhaps this is less formal instruction would be necessary for reading skills in languages that use the Roman alphabet, but that would depend on the individual child. Happykid is on the dyslexic side, and definitely needed formal instruction in her other language. She attended Saturday school for eight long (from my board member mom perspective) years. I have no problem at all with a student scoring 800 on an SAT II if that represents years of out-of-regular-school dedication.</p>
<p>happymom, I’ve heard that kids who spend years studying Hebrew often ace the SATII. People often bemoan how tough the curve is on that one as a result. As you point out, this is the result of years of out-of-school dedication. IMHO this is somewhat different from a kid who grew up with Chinese or Korean AND English taking a test that is aimed at kids who started learning in 9th grade or whatever. It would be like a native English speaker taking an English test in another country where the stuff they had to read was the equivalent of “the cat sat on the mat.” I mean, sure, the kid is going to score an 800, but what does that represent? It’s great that the kid is bilingual, but I doubt that adcoms are going to view that 800 as evidence of academic effort or talent.</p>
<p>At one point I seem to recall that the UC system allowed students to sub the Chinese SAT II for the Lit one, and there was a strong feeling in some quarters that this was grossly unfair in a very numbers-driven admissions process, because the Lit SATII is designed to be challenging for native English speakers while the Chinese one is ridiculously simple for native speakers. I’ve also noticed a lot of Korean kids presenting an 800 in Korean in the perhaps-mistaken impression that this is another 800 that will impress the adcoms, while I’d be willing to bet that they would be much more impressed by a lower score in either another language or something like history. But I have no dog in that hunt, especially since we aren’t CA residents.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Many people grow up speaking a non-English language with their immigrant parents at home, but have much weaker reading and writing ability in that language due to lack of instruction in reading and writing in that language (indeed, some colleges offer special versions of introductory language courses for heritage speakers with weak reading and writing ability). That is why there exist after-school programs to teach reading and writing in various languages to heritage speakers in elementary school. But attendance to those programs (or the immigrant parents “home schooling” the kids) for reading and writing the language is some level of academic effort, although it may not be visible on a high school transcript.</p>
<p>I wonder why Chinese and Korean native or heritage speakers are being singled out here. Surely there are native or heritage speakers of Spanish, French, etc. who ace the SAT subject and/or AP tests in those languages.</p>
<p>@thumper1</p>
<p>I’ve had two kids apply to multiple colleges, none of which required subject tests. Maybe a random effect or the stars aligning just right, but left me clueless about them. </p>
<p>I’m aware that AP results don’t arrive until July, but they had scores from before senior year to submit.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>For two reasons: I’ve never seen anyone complaining that the UC system would sub the SATII in French or Spanish for the Lit test requirement in admissions. Maybe they do and no one has mentioned it? Not a CA resident or applicant, so I really don’t know. Secondly, I don’t recall ever seeing a francophone kid here on CC presenting an 800 on the French test as an admissions credential, while I’ve seen a fair number of Korean kids (typically from Korea but schooled in English either there or in North America or both) presenting the SATII in Korean as an admissions credential.</p>
<p>I only bring it up because I think those Korean kids in particular are misguided in assuming that an 800 in anything is going to help them get in to top schools. Just as we advise kids not to use Math I and Math II as their SATIIs, I think the kids in question would probably be better served by choosing something else, even if they are going to score a “mere” 700+. :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Way back when, UC required three achievement tests (now SAT subject), English (which was replace by the SAT reasoning writing section), math, and one other of the student’s choice. So the opportunity was there for someone who had native reading and writing ability in Spanish or French to pick up an easy 800 there.</p>
<p>But is it that big a deal? Such students are more likely to have English as their second language, and may not, on average, do as well as native English speakers on the English reading and writing tests (which are often viewed with greater importance anyway). Maybe it has more to do with resentment of a possible advantage that some members of some racial or ethnic minorities have, even if that comes with a corresponding disadvantage in other areas.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What is wrong with using the math level 2 subject test? Indeed, some schools or (engineering) divisions prefer to see the math level 2 subject test. (Math level 1 does not seem to be that valuable, though, since schools, divisions, or majors concerned about math likely prefer math level 2.)</p>
<p>A student concerned about negative discrimination based on using a subject test in his/her native or heritage language may want take that as an additional test beyond whatever number is recommended by the schools being applied to, if s/he has reason to believe that demonstrating proficiency in the language will be helpful. Not all Korean Americans or Chinese Americans are proficient in Korean or Chinese.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You misunderstand me. I meant using BOTH Math 1 and Math II as one’s two SATIIs, and nothing else. No other subjects.</p>
<p>I know that not all Korean Americans are proficient in Korean. I referred specifically to students who grew up in Korea, speaking and reading/writing Korean. While it is great that they are bilingual, I think that they would be advised to demonstrate proficiency in some other subject through their SATII. I don’t think this is a matter of “discrimination.” Would you advice an international student from France to submit the French SATII as one of his or her two SATIIs? I wouldn’t. The adcom already knows the kid is fluent in French. The SATII is an opportunity to demonstrate proficiency is something else.</p>
<p>Re: #49</p>
<p>Those Korean and French students’ second language is English. And they will be taking the SAT reasoning which tests English language topics, plus they will be taking other tests in English. What exactly is the problem here?</p>
<p>Okay, let me try again. An international student from France is applying to US schools that require two SATIIs. Let us imagine that they come to CC and ask for advice regarding which tests to take to present the best possible application and maximize their chances of getting in. </p>
<p>The ad com is only going to look at the two highest scores. Are you SERIOUSLY going to advise that student to take the French with Listening SATII? Really? Do you SERIOUSLY see some kind of “discrimination” at work in advising that student to take some other subject so as to display his or her talents to the fullest? The ad com already knows this student is fluent in his or her native language, and acing a test aimed at kids who have studied the language for 4 or 5 years is not going to strengthen their application and help them achieve their goal.</p>
<p>If the French international applicant is applying to a school needing two, what if s/he supplies three, two non-French ones and a French one, and lets the admissions committee decide what to use?</p>
<p>In any case, international students are treated a lot differently from domestic students in a lot of ways, so is that case necessarily the same as for an American student with some knowledge of a heritage foreign language?</p>
<p>Oy vey. I give up.</p>
<p>If the college requires Subject tests take them, but if the school doesn’t require them then the student should only take them if they want to as a strategic move. I think this has the eerie tones of the SAT is better than the ACT threads from years gone by. And remember, there are regional biases with regard to the availability of these tests. I haven’t looked lately, but 3 years ago it was over an hour drive to find an SAT testing center for my son. I can’t imagine trying to find a center or place to take SAT IIs today.</p>
<p>Are you curious how many of the students taking SAT language subject tests are native speakers? If so, you can check the charts.</p>
<p><a href=“http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/SAT-Subject_Tests_Lang-Performance-Years-Study-2011.pdf[/url]”>http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/SAT-Subject_Tests_Lang-Performance-Years-Study-2011.pdf</a></p>
<p>Regarding “many” or “most”, I would think that between the Cal State and UC systems “most” high school students from California who attend four year colleges do indeed attend state universities. No official source to back up that supposition. :-)</p>