<p>At all the information sessions for colleges we visited so far (including UC and several "top" or ivy schools) we have been told that if you are submitting only ACT scores, subject tests are not needed for the non-science/engineering majors. However, I keep hearing the opposite from friends. If you think your child may not be able to test in the mid 700's on the subject tests, is it better to not take them? I know a lot of schools ask for all test scores, so I'm assuming that if you take the tests you may be required to send them, is this correct?</p>
<p>With all the testing that is going on right now (finals, AP etc.) I'm not sure if adding subject tests to the load is the right thing to do.</p>
<p>Some colleges and universities require SAT Subject exams. Of those, some will accept the ACT exam instead of SAT plus SAT Subject exams. Some ask that all exam scores be reported. Of those, some really do want all of the exams, but others only want all of the ACT scores if the student is using ACT for admission or SAT scores if the student is using SAT for admission. Since each institution sets its own policy about this, you really do have to read through the website to find out what the options are. </p>
<p>If your child is likely to be applying to places that do want SAT Subject exams, the best time to take those exams is as close to the completion of the corresponding course in high school. To get a read on how your child might score, pick up some of the official prep materials at the public library, and have your child work through a sample exam at home.</p>
<p>I would check the admissions pages of schools your child might be interested in to see if SAT subject tests are required. If they are, rather than seeing them as adding to the load, I would consider it “two birds with one stone.” My D took the SAT subject tests that she took the AP exams in. It worked out well, doubling up like that.</p>
<p>A summary of the situation as of January. Naturally all information should be confirmed with the individual schools as policies change frequently.</p>
<p>12 schools absolutely require SAT Subject (II) tests.
CalTech
CMU
Columbia U
Cornell U
Dartmouth College
Franklin Olin College
Harvard U
Harvey Mudd College
MIT
Princeton U
Webb Institute
Williams College</p>
<p>18 schools require SAT Subject tests if the SAT Reasoning (I) test is submitted but will accept the ACT (with writing) by itself instead of the College Board tests.
Amherst College
Barnard College
Boston College
Boston University
Brown University
Bryn Mawr College
Duke University
Haverford College
McGill University
Pomona College
Rice University
Swarthmore College
Tufts University
University of Pennsylvania
Vassar College
Wellesley College
Wesleyan University
Yale University</p>
<p>24 schools recommend (or “strongly recommend”) that SAT Subject tests be submitted. In some of these cases particular programs in the school (such as ISP at Northwestern) require Subject tests.
Carleton College
Claremont McKenna
Cooper Union
Davidson College
Emory University
Georgetown University
Hollins University
Johns Hopkins University
Lafayette College
Lehigh University
Northwestern University
Oberlin College
Occidental College
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
Scripps College
Skidmore College
Stanford University
University of Delaware
University of Georgia
University of Southern California
University of Virginia
Vanderbilt University
Washington and Lee University
Washington University in St. Louis</p>
<p>There are also a few schools that require some subject-oriented testing but will accept alternative scores, such as on AP tests, in fulfillment of this requirement.</p>
<p>University of CA system schools no longer require subject tests.</p>
<p>Thank you for the great replies. I guess part of what I was asking has to do with what they say vs. what they really want. Especially with the UCs, I’m hearing that even though they say they don’t need the subject tests, they really do want them. Do you think that’s true of elite schools that say they don’t need them if you submit the ACT?</p>
<p>The GC at our kids HS believed that most of the Us preferred by the elite HS wanted SAT subject tests, especially those on the West Coast, where most of the kids applied & ended up attending. Many of them also took the ACT to see if there was any/much score difference. Most kids did not notice much of a difference. I agree that it’s best to time the SAT subject tests as close to the subject matter as possible. For MathII, that’s when they’re studying pre-calc. Very few Us were interested in MathI and the MathII curve is much more generous (S found out the hard way–scoring MUCH better on Math II than Math I). Especially for engineers, the schools he applied to wanted MathII.</p>
<p>BTW, I think for most of these schools a 700+ is okay (especially out of math and science). My kids found that APUSH prep allowed them to get 790 or 800 on the SAT. Very much a two birds with one stone. My kids didn’t study hardly at all for the subject tests except to look at the practice book and make sure they knew the material (younger son had to learn what a matrix was). They were studying for the APs. Biology also had strong overlap with the AP.</p>
<p>Do you really need to submit subject test if you have several APs? Or was I under the naive delusion that subject tests were a substitute if you didn’t have a strong AP resume?</p>
<p>I don’t know–the GC said not to waste money sending AP results except that the U the student was ultimately going to attend. He wrote on his recs for S that S got all 5s on his APs and 1 4, which was all true. The subject tests are similar but NOT identical and do not substitute for SAT subject matter exams which are all generally included on all score reports sent out after the dates of SAT & SATII exams.</p>
<p>You can also look at it this way- if you have strong SAT Subject test scores they** might** help with admission, even if the school does not officially require them ;)</p>
<p>For Berkeley College of Engineering and College of Chemistry, freshman applicants are recommended to take SAT subject tests in math level 2 and a science.</p>
<p>AP tests may substitute for SAT subject tests in situations where a required high school prerequisite is waived by a test (e.g. instead of completing level N of high school foreign language, a college allows the applicant to show proficiency with a high enough score on a foreign language AP or SAT subject test).</p>
<p>But otherwise, they have different purposes. SAT subject tests cover high school level material. AP tests cover what is theoretically college freshman level material (although some AP tests and courses are “watered down” – e.g. a semester college course of material covered in a whole year).</p>
<p>-- Schools say they give the ACT equal weight but secretly prefer the SAT
– Schools say that Subject tests aren’t required or recommended, but secretly prefer they be sent anyway
– Schools say that only two Subject tests are necessary but secretly prefer three (or four, or however many you can take)
– Schools say that any Subject tests will do but secretly prefer certain ones, such as Math Level II</p>
<p>Does anyone have any evidence to support that there are these kinds of unacknowledged preferences in admissions? I have never seen anything although I have looked. I’ll even accept a firsthand account in which an admissions staffer confides that one or more of these is actually the case. So far I have never heard this, either.</p>
<p>On the other hand if you read the results postings of admitted students at some of the premium schools here on CC you see that, indeed, some students are admitted on the strength of an ACT score only. So there is some evidence, not definitive, that these rumors are false.</p>
<p>Schools appear to be quite clear about their requirements and preferences for admission evaluations. Why think they don’t mean what they say?</p>
<p>Yes, they were important for some schools – in my child’s case B.U. & Amherst. One school made it optional so we didn’t send but did sent optional AP scores because they were high.</p>
<p>I think it is foolish not to prepare by taking at least two SATIIs, in some cases three. If fall of senior year rolls around and the kid decides that they do want to apply to one of the schools that require them, they will be out of luck unless they can do something last minute. If the school just “recommends” them, I would take that as a “requires” unless your kid is an absolute shoo-in at the school. (And we know how likely that is…)</p>
<p>It is a good idea for the kid to take at least one of them sophomore year, to relieve the testing burden later. Not Math II, unless the kid has pre-calc that year, and not the languages, which benefit from longer study, but something self-contained, such as biology or chemistry–if the kid has done well in the subject. </p>
<p>AP scores can be listed in the honors section of the Common App, and scores just sent to the school the kid attends.</p>
<p>I agree that having a couple of Subject tests maximizes flexibility and that timing them appropriately is an optimal strategy. Taking at least one as a sophomore is also a good idea. My own favorite in this regard is World History, which is often taught in tenth grade. It can be a bit of challenge, however, to get a tenth grader who only has eyes for the upcoming summer to take it in June.</p>
<p>My point, however, was simply that if no school on a list of application targets requires or recommends subject tests, I would be content to not push a student into taking them based on a suspected but unstated–and, I think, non-existent–preference.</p>
<p>If it were a matter of having to actually PUSH a kid into taking them, and s/he was absolutely certain that no schools that recommend or require them would ever be on the list…well, actually, I can’t imagine that. :)</p>