Are the Ivies worth all the bother?

College Search & Selection
461

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You made an analysis error here. All you’ve shown is that by the time you have 4 Michigan students in a room, the probabililty that all 4 hail from the same state is only 7.4%. That by no means excludes the almost definite occurrence that 2 or even 3 of those 4 kids are Michigan residents and the 4th is most likely from Long Island or a Chicago suburb.</p>

<p>So no, even once you have a couple of dozen students at Michigan, the chances that the group will be truly diverse is still pretty low. Based on the statistical makeup of the student body, a little over a dozen will be from Michigan and a couple will be from New York, a couple will be from Illinois, a couple will be from California, and maybe one will be from an underrepresented state like Georgia.</p>

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It absolutely is; you are analyzing data in the most bizarre way. The states that Duke culls the most students from are the most densely populated areas in the country and have the highest concentrations of intelligent students in the country so obviously a state like New Jersey or California are going to be much more represented than a state like Utah or North Dakota. No elite university or top schools will draw from these remote states like North Dakora or Arkansas as they simply have more provincial students who just aren’t looking to travel and they have fewer accomplished individuals compared to more educated states.</p>

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The fact that a whopping 40% of the population of a private school in North Carolina doesn’t come from the most populated corridor of the country that it happens to be located in seems to be prima facie evidence of incredible geographic diversity.</p>

<p>I think you expect a university with utopian geographic diversity to have an exact 20% split in all 5 regions of the country when some areas of the country are much more densely populated than others and have greater absolute numbers of academic superstars, all factors that make such an occurrence an impossibility without severely reducing the academic standards of a school.</p>

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The Midwest is the least represented region of the country at Duke without a doubt but it still manages to enroll 2% of its student population from Illinois, 3% from Ohio, 1% from Michigan, 1% from Minnesota, etc.</p>

<p>U of M, on the other hand, draws far worse from the South where it has the least geographical representation. Only 1% of the class comes from Florida, 0.03% originates from Georgia, another 0.027% from North Carolina, and far less than that anywhere else in the region.</p>

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Here we go again…if you look at the populations of those Western states and divide the number of students that Duke enrolls from them by their overall population, you will find that they are actually better represented than some of the schools on the East Coast in terms of percentage.</p>

<p>Duke still gets 1% or more from Colorado, Arizona, or Washington. It actually has more students on an absolute basis in some of the Western states than Michigan which just blows my mind.</p>

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I really don’t even know how to respond to this; its like someone’s arguing that Arizona State is better than Harvard since it enrolls more students. After all, absolute numbers are what matter right?</p>

<p>Xiggi, please help me!!:)</p>

462

<p>@xiggi: my point about the last 18 months in Wisconsin is that all the political turmoil shed light on the vastly differing mindsets and backgrounds that prevail among the population. And the in-state students who attend UW are also diverse in their experiences and points of view. There are wealthy kids from the Milwaukee and Madison suburbs, working-class kids from declining paper mill towns, children of Indian doctors and Hmong refugees. There are kids who are extremely conservative and others who are wildly liberal. And even among the state’s rural population, there are huge ranges–from home-schooled Christian dairy farmers’ kids to the offspring of hippies who live on organic farms and go to Waldorf schools. </p>

<p>I can’t speak for everywhere else but I am sure many other states have similar “internal” diversity. To Pizzagirl’s point, state lines are arbitrary–which is why socioeconomic and psychographic diversity are so important (although the latter is not easily measured). And we do know that the Ivies and other “elite” colleges are becoming more and more the province of two groups: the well-off (the majority) and the low-income but extremely talented minorities who balance their numbers out. The middle class is less and less part of the composition of many expensive private schools.</p>

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<p>FWIW, which admittedly isn’t much.
At her non - flagship state university in Missouri this fall, my daughter will have a roommate from China. </p>

<p>Of the four girls in her suite, only one is from Missouri.</p>

464

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No. We have traveled abroad since our kids were little, and we just recently moved back to US after living abroad for 2 years. </p>

<p>I personally do not believe college should be the first time for our kids to experience diversity. If parents think it is important then they should have exposed their kids to whatever kind of diversity when they were younger. </p>

<p>What kidn of diversity is it to have kids from different states? I am sure a kid from Chicago is exactly same as a kid from Boston, NY, DC…They use FB, hang out at the malls (buy from the same stores), take AP/IB courses, belong to MUN, have an iPhone and Mac. We are so connected now through the internet, TV shows and chain restaurants/stores, a kid from Boston is no different than a kid from SF. Americans have become so homogeneous that I really don’t see that much diversity.</p>

<p>If Pizzagirl’s kids (midwest) were to meet my kids (NE), I am not sure if there is anything her kids could say/show my kids that my kids wouldn’t be aware of, and vice versa.</p>

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<p>One view of international diversity at Harvard:
[Into</a> the College Melting Pot | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/3/20/global-citizen-education-chang/]Into”>Into the College Melting Pot | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson)</p>

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<p>However, that school is not exactly a typical non-flagship state university in that it has characteristics which make it attractive to a segment of the college student population that is not defined by state or region of residency.</p>

467

<p>Re: “diversity”</p>

<p>While most people think race and ethnicity when they see the word “diversity”, what about other forms of diversity?</p>

<p>For example, is academic diversity important? This includes both academic interests (e.g. major selection) and academic abilities.</p>

<p>For academic interests, is it important that other students have a wide variety of interests and majors, or is a school is mostly similar in students’ type of majors acceptable or desirable (e.g. Sarah Lawrence, Harvey Mudd)? What about post-graduation destinations – is a school that sends a very large percentage of graduates to investment banking and management consulting desirable or undesirable compared to one whose graduates have more diverse destinations?</p>

<p>For academic abilities, it appears that many people here think that diversity is undesirable, in that a “top student” should attend a school with only top students, as opposed to a school with a wide range of student abilities and motivations (but enough of a “top student” population that the school offers appropriate courses and majors for them).</p>

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<p>Even students attending academically focused schools like Penn/Wharton, MIT or Ga Tech will be interacting with students of other academic/vocational interests. It may be less so than at a LAC or flagship U, but it isnt as insular as say an art or culinary school.</p>

469

<p>If diversity is truly valued in America, white flight would have been reversed a long time ago. The way the word is being used on CC is nothing but a code word for “not too Asian”.</p>

<p>As I see it from the Great White North anyway. Anyone else with me on this one?</p>

470

<p>Wow, Canukguy, I didnt see it that way at all. Can’t speak for others, but I was thinking diversity in terms of not only race but academic interest, SES, cultural/religious backgrounds, etc. I was thinking that Rose Hulman , CIA (Culinary institute) or Notre Dame as examples of less diverse places. Wasn’t thinking ORM at all, and didnt see others as infrerring that either.</p>

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<p>You have a point. I will rephrase it to “it is often a code word…”. In my part of the woods, when you talk about diversity in higher education, it is usually done with a nudge and a wink.</p>

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<p>Since we are being honest…my impression is that the diversity many people here want (and the kind being used to support a decision to go to an Ivy or other prestigious national university) is a high presence of international students, but not ONLY from one part of the world (i.e., Asia). Among domestic students, posters here are also using diversity regarding state of origin as a way to reinforce their preference for an elite university with a “national” student body. The less geographically “regional” an institution is, the better it is presumed to be.</p>

<p>As I have stated before, other measures of diversity, such as those jym has summarized in #472, are equally important to me. I have accepted the fact that no college could possibly be as diverse as my kids’ large public high school, which has an enormous range of students according to race, SES, ability levels, and country of origin. To me the most important feature of diversity is TOLERANCE. That means respecting and trying to understand others’ viewpoints; accepting cultural differences; and not assuming that one’s background is “better” than anyone else’s. This is why I bristle when I hear stories of prep-school students now at Ivies or other “elite” universities complaining about having to room with “the financial-aid kids” on their study-abroad trips. This is why I sometimes become defensive when people who have never visited a certain part of the country write it off with a broad brush and ridiculous generalizations. This is what bothers me about people who are so set in their preconceived notions that they don’t even try to understand where those with other perspectives are coming from. Diversity is only a benefit to those who take advantage of it.</p>

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<p>Well said, sally.</p>

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<p>Considering the population of Asia versus the rest of the world (probably about 60% of the non-US population), if international students were randomly distributed by population-weighted country of origin, there would be a lot of international students from Asia within the international student population.</p>

<p>So perhaps Canuckguy is right – “diversity” is sometimes a code word for “not too Asian”.</p>

<p>(Then again, there are also people, not necessarily posting here, who have a hard time distinguishing between Americans of Asian or Latino ancestry and internationals from countries in Asia or Latin America.)</p>

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<p>Sometimes I think we would be much further ahead if we can be more honest with ourselves and with others. When I see posters take one position on one thread and the opposite position on another, or take one position with CC posters and a different one with their own (children) etc., I have to ask what the motive is.</p>

<p>I don’t see why it is so bad to admit that prestige is your thing. Prestige can be very important in many cases. If you want IB and consulting, then look at HYP and maybe Stanford and Wharton(Rivera). If you want to marry up, going to an Ivy or Oxbridge makes perfect sense, although I must admit that Kate Middleton really hit the jackpot going to St. Andrew instead. If you are a minority, going to an Ivy to help leveling the playing field is also eminently reasonable. These and many others decisions are perfectly rational. Why not?</p>

<p>Instead, we tell ourselves we do it for the education while there is no good empirical evidence to support such a claim; we tell ourselves we love diversity but have no intention of living in diversity; we tell ourselves we want to be surrounded by the brightest yet I do not see math and physics departments bursting at the seam. </p>

<p>Sorry, I just don’t buy it.</p>

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<p>I don’t think that a direct correlation exists between the gross population of east asian countries and the representation of international students at US colleges. As an example, the incoming calss at my undergrad alma mater noted: </p>

<p>13.8% of admitted students hold foreign citizenship and represent 53 countries</p>

<p>No indication of the breakout/distribution of students per country, but it seems like a giant leap to assume that to population of the asian countries correlates with student representation in US colleges.</p>

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Good post, I agree. I think your perspective on ‘diversity’ as “not too Asian” is somewhat slanted coming from Canada, but this post is spot on.</p>

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<p>Agree. Kids today are good at that, but older adults are not. Diversity in college is for parents.</p>

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<p>When Ivies and other elite colleges in the Northeast say they have a “geographically diverse” student body, what they really mean is their students come from all parts of the Northeast Corridor and California. The numbers from the Midwest, South, and West (other than California) are much smaller, even token in many cases.</p>

<p>You can’t really fault the schools for that. Public universities are stronger in many other parts of the country, and there are also some strong private options in many places. Most students prefer to stay in their home regions. So it’s likely they get far fewer applications from other parts of the country, and the applicants they do get may not be as strong, with most of the stronger students preferring to stay closer to home. But the consequence is that the student bodies at even the most elite colleges and universities are much more regional—and less “national”—than is commonly supposed. Nor, contrary to popular misconception in the Northeast, is it the case that most students at Ivies come from the Northeast because that’s where the most people are. Of the 4 major regions identified by the U.S. Census Bureau, the Northeast is actually the least populous, with just under 18% of the nation’s population. The most populous region is the South, with about 37% of the nation’s population, or twice the Northeast total, followed by the West with 23% and the Midwest with about 22%. California alone makes up about 52% of the West’s population, or 12% of the nation’s population.</p>

<p>The Census Bureau’s Northeast region extends only as far south as Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Because most people would now include the Baltimore-Washington area in the Northeast, I revised the regions to add Maryland, Virginia, DC, and Delaware to the Northeast, taking them away from the South. That increases the Northeast’s total to 70.6 million (23% of the nation’s total) and shrinks the South’s total to 99.3 million (32% of the nation’s total). Using those revised regions, here’s how the Ivies stack up in regional representation in their respective 2010 entering classes:</p>

<p>Brown: Northeast 48.1%; California 15.5%; NE + CA 63.6%; Midwest 8.6%; South 10%; West (except CA) 4.3%.
Penn: NE 54.9%; CA 9%; NE + CA 63.9%; Midwest 8.2%; South 11.8%; West (exc. CA) 4.1%
Cornell: NE 62.4%; CA 8.5%; NW + CA 70.9%; Midwest 6.3%; South 9.1%; West (exc. CA) 3.7%
Columbia: NE 50.7%; CA 12%; NE + CA 62.7%; Midwest 7.7%; South 13.6%; West (exc. CA) 4.2%
Dartmouth: NE 48.6%; CA 12.8%; NE + CA 61.4%; Midwest 11.1%; South 12.6%; West (exc. CA) 6.4%
Princeton: NE 45.2%; CA 14.9%; NE + CA 60.1%; Midwest 10%; South 13.7%; West (exc. CA) 4%
Yale: NE 42.3%; CA 11.9%; NE + CA 54.2%; Midwest 11.3%; South 14.7%; West (exc. CA) 5.6%
Harvard: NE 42%; CA 14.2%; NE + CA 56.2%; Midwest 11.2%; South 15.1%; West (exc. CA) 5.2%</p>

<p>Generally speaking, then, (except at Harvard and Yale where the figure is slightly lower), Northeasterners and Californians combined make up roughly 2/3 of the 2010 entering class at the Ivies, even though these regions together make up only about 1/3 of the nation’s population. The Northeast is overrepresented relative to its weight in the nation’s population by roughly a factor of 2, in some cases more; at Cornell, it’s closer to a factor of 3. The South is underrepresented relative to its weight in the nation’s population by roughly a factor of 3 (slightly lower at Yale and Harvard). The Midwest and West (apart from California) are underrepresented by a factor of 2 to 3, depending on the school, and California is represented proportionally at Columbia, Dartmouth, and Yale, slightly overrepresented at Brown, Princeton, and Harvard, and slightly underrepresented at Penn and Cornell. There are roughly 6 times as many Northeasterners as Midwesterners attending Ivies, even though those two regions are roughly equal in population (in my expended version of the Northeast). There are roughly 2.7 times as many Californians as other Westerners attending Ivies, even though the combined population of the other Western states roughly equals California’s.</p>

<p>Pretty regional skew for schools that like to think of themselves as “national.” No doubt it would be similar in other regions. As I’ve argued for a long time, the market for higher education is actually much more regional than many people think.</p>

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<p>The biggest factor in these stats is the fact that a majority of students WANT TO go to school within 200 miles of their home. You can market & accept students that evenly represent the nation, but you are still going to wind up with the majority of your student body from the region you are in.</p>