<p>Then why go to college? If your beliefs are final and you’re unwilling to tolerate any deviation from them, your education is completed. You are what you are and you’ll always have the same vantage point that you presently have.</p>
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<p>Fine - So be a committed Christian and make this the basis of your faith. But don’t make it the basis of your education. Faith is a belief in things that are cannot be proven by a rational process. If you wish to develop your power of reasoning, you can’t start from a premise that reconsideration of certain topics and beliefs is off-limits.</p>
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<p>Very well put, ColgateDad. In fact, instead of composing new responses to this recurring question, I may just begin quoting you - I don’t think that I can improve on your post.</p>
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<li><p>Please understand, I’m not promoting nor denigrating Christian education; merely working to define it based on Christian beliefs, truth, practices, and doctrine. It’s a personal, dare I say free? choice as to which anyone wishes to pursue, be it sectarian or secular education. God gave us that prerogative, and who am I to over-ride His provision?</p></li>
<li><p>Yours is the classic relativist cultural perspective that one can put education and faith into their own separate little boxes, n’er the 'tween shall meet. You may think that to be possible, and you have tons of company in that notion, but the truth is both impact and are impacted by one’s in-toto experiences, virtually all of which are educational and instructive. It’s impossible to separate the 2, notably if one is a true follower of Christ, for we’re told Christ is “in” us, guiding every facet and step. But I speculate you’d prbly say same of church and state, neither touches (nor should touch) the other. Try that silliness on grasping the original intentions of the Founding Fathers. These 2 subsets of our universe are indeed inseparable for if one is either a Christian or otherwise, his worldview of all he sees and does is impacted. For example, as soon as one tries to remove God the Creator as imbuing all rights, then who replaces them? Man, of course. And then they are no longer rights, merely dictates, preferences, current laws of men, subject to change. God’s directives are eternal, never changing. Your point holds no water, I’m afraid. </p></li>
<li><p>Similarly, you perhaps think science (and “education”) are somehow about “facts” and faith is about something else, emotions, feelings, mystical stories, magical legends, fairytales that are somehow something other than facts. But you’ve missed it totally. Some religions most certainly are conjured up by those ethereal things. But Christianity is truth based on facts that are conveyed in the Bible and have been supported by science …archaeology, paleontology, historical documents, and on and on. In “fact” there has NEVER been a single aspect or bit of information that has been proven to be untrue, while tens of thousands of bits of information have been validated by education, research, and the sciences. And in “fact” #2 …that is precisely why Jesus Christ came to earth, that men and women might not be allowed the delusion of their own imaginations and whimsy. But indeed, and I challenge anyone to read, learn, study and examine this truth …Christianity is purely about facts. No myth, no magic, no fairytales. </p></li>
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<p>Now does anyone have to believe? Not at all. Free to accept or reject. But not free to modify and redesign and rewrite. Free choice is the 1st freedom and right. Original sin is the latter.</p>
<p>But let me conclude to gadad, while you’ve monumental numbers of company who’d buy what you’re peddling, I’d suggest taking zero comfort in that. Rather, find out for yourself by pursuing and challenging what I’m purveying. But don’t do it on your own intuition or logic. Humanity has failed since the very first 2 folks got here. You and I are no different. Remember this …Jesus told P. Pilate and the angry mob, when asked what kinda king he was …“I came to testify to THE TRUTH.” (caps mine). And what was PP’s response? Who remembers? </p>
<p>He rhetorically wondered and responded, “Ah, but what is truth?” And with that, especially in light of many of the mushy meanderings people have of their ideas of the Christian faith, we see the absolute pertinence to our modern society. The world is filled with Pontius Pilates and angry mobsters. Right gadad? </p>
<p>btw, ColgateDad’s observation that most top students are not attracted to Christian colleges, is accurate sadly, at least by traditional academic measures. Conversely, there is no evidence that those measures have much to do with any godly success in the world. And that’s the kind of success Christians and indeed all people SHOULD be pursuing. Furthermore, in no way should anyone, no matter his/her SAT scores or class rank, should assume that those secular other institutions provide a better education. It merely says that’s where the “world’s” students tend to matriculate toward. Says zilch about the quality of education, especially from a godly perspective. So don’t be dissuaded by such silliness.</p>
Well, hold on there a minute. What about the idea that the Sun revolves around the Earth? As you may know, this was once an accepted part of Christian beliefs, and people were severely punished for denying it. It was defended as Biblical (after all, God stopped the Sun, not the Earth). Is there anybody left who would defend this “fact” in the face of scientific evidence that the Earth revolves around the Sun? What would be your opinion of a college that taught this as fact in its astronomy classes, and insisted that all of its professors believe that it is true no matter what contrary evidence might appear?</p>
<p>If a person is interested in theology, or in becoming a pastor or other religious worker, I think it makes perfect sense to attend a college where the curriculum matches the student’s religious beliefs. But if you’re talking about the natural sciences, I really have to question the value of an education in which certain ideas are off-limits, no matter what the evidence may show. As I’ve noted before, Christian colleges vary in how they approach this, and it’s something you need to know about before you enroll in one.</p>
<p>What a bourgeois statement…“I am going to college because I want to expand my mind or some such crap and I can afford to do so.” </p>
<p>I’m at college to get a job and to develop the views I already have, not to change them. I’m sorry if that conflicts with the reason that YOU went to college, but not all of us can be so wonderful, right?</p>
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<p>The power of reasoning doesn’t deal in assumptions. At a fundamental level, the poster believes God exists. At a fundamental level, unless you are a nihilist, you believe that there is a sense of morality. Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.</p>
<p>I develop my power of reasoning every single day, yet somehow my beliefs have not changed since childhood. And yet I now know more and can think in ways I could not before college. How is this possible? I must be deluded!</p>
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<p>No, you’re defining it based on your incredibly narrow view of Christianity. Creationism is not embraced by many Christians. e.g. the Catholic Church, which numbers over one billion.</p>
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<p>Uh…No. Because the Bible has not been proven true empirically. That’s why we Christians have faith.</p>
<p>I assume that unless you’re a non-traditional student, those were the views of a 17- or 18-year-old? You may want to consider that upward mobility in your chosen career path may be quite limited for someone whose cognitive development stopped at the teenage years.</p>
<p>The primary cognitive task between the ages of 18 to mid-20s typically involves moving from a position of dualism (everything’s right or wrong; black or right; the way I perceive things or the way that others wrongly perceive them) to an appreciation of multiple ways of perceiving - the understanding that one perspective does not hold a monopoly on truth and that people whose perspectives come from all kinds of vantage points have much to offer one another. As a university VP, I have the opportunity to hire a lot of people for a variety of positions. But I cannot employ anyone who does not grasp the concept of multiple perspectives. They’re just not equipped to be successful professionals in a rapidly shrinking world.</p>
<p>Cognitive development is not limited to the desire to change one’s beliefs for the sake of changing them.</p>
<p>You are also unaware of the cognitive state of every college student. Some people have beliefs that are based on assumptions, as all are. They are perfectly content with their own assumptions. Going to college isn’t going to radically change that fact – it’s stil all assumptions.</p>
<p>Also, my parents both went to college for similarly practical reasons and are doing fine. At least well enough to pay full tuition in careers that require immense analytical ability.</p>
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<p>That position of dualism is still embraced by many institutions and, say, religions across the globe. That mindset doesn’t end with teenagers. That mindset exists in those who chose to embrace it. You speak as if dualism is somehow something to be avoided.</p>
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<p>That’s not inconsistent with dualism. One can be open to the idea of multiple vantage points while still asserting the primacy and correctness of one system or outcome over the others.</p>
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<p>Again, acknowledging that they exist is not equivalent to acknowledging that they have any legitimacy whatsoever. Take Nazism. It’s a different perspective. I’m sure we could learn something from it. But I guess I’m a closed-minded dualist when I state that it is morally wrong.</p>
<p>You’re arguing in favor of something that is of no inherent benefit, at least in the sense that you mention. Understanding different backgrounds is certainly useful in some careers; working with other personality types is certainly useful in some careers; thinking about things in a different way is certainly useful in some careers.</p>
<p>I do all of those things – yet my religious convictions have not changed since childhood. You are falsely using one aspect of identity as a proxy for all cognitive development.</p>
<p>Finally, my original point – consider an engineering degree, and let me know how useful changing religions or exposing yourself to people of different religions is for them. That’s not the kind of cognitive development necessary for engineering careers. In fact, I’ll serve as a test sample, being an engineer myself. I will let you know in ten years how not changing my religious beliefs oh…ever has worked out.</p>
<p>I dunno, I read this more as “I refuse to employ anyone that does not share my beliefs,” which is as closed minded as you proclaim those different than you to be. There’s a reason I prefer to keep my youngsters away from these sorts of colleges and open to those (religious or secular) that either lean more our way or truly accept all views not just “all views that agree with yours.”</p>
<p>I was raised a staunch Democrat from an education-employed non-religious family (both sides). It took working in a different field to open my eyes to what else is out there (and reasons behind it). For what it’s worth, even though we’re rather opposite politically and definitely opposite in religious views, my folks and I (and my boys) all get along just fine. True tolerance is a wonderful thing.</p>
<p>Baelor, aren’t you an advocate for Catholic colleges? My understanding is that most of them, while teaching doctrine, also promote inquiry. And when you say that your beliefs haven’t changed “since childhood,” it makes some of us wonder how old you are now…</p>
<p>gadad, I think that a lot of religious teenagers are afraid that their cherished beliefs will be challenged or even destroyed in college. They hear about people who went off to college and lost their faith, or strayed into sinful ways, etc.–something which certainly does happen. I remember feeling a bit of that myself–but it didn’t really happen. While my beliefs (mostly) survived, my overall perspective changed, and in particular my understanding that people with views different from my own actually believed them, and were not stupid or crazy. That’s kind of a shock for a teenager, I guess. I still think my own views are the right ones, but I have a bit more empathy and patience for those who think differently. To bring this back to the topic, that’s the problem I have with an extremely doctrinaire religious college–it may ■■■■■■ the development of that maturity.</p>
<p>Not more than any other type of college. I like the idea of religious colleges, but I’m not an advocate for them. That implies more action than I’ve ever considered taking.</p>
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<p>Of course they promote inquiry. But the ones that do so in the manner that gadad suggested are the ones like Georgetown, etc. which are now Catholic in name only, if one is to take a definition of Catholic as in some way being aligned with the Church. Those colleges I have a problem with. Inquiry =/= necessarily challenging one’s own assumptions, but understanding them to a greater degree. “Why do I believe this” is inquiry but not challenging one’s beliefs.</p>
<p>And Hunt, I’m a college student. You know how old I am. If you want older people, both my parents and all my grandparents never changed their religious beliefs either (in the sense of staying the same religion with the same basic tenets).</p>
<p>I would also add that my HS was exactly like the vision of college the gadad promoted, except that everyone there had the same ideology, and it wasn’t mine. So, I was indeed surrounded by people who thought differently. On the “cognitive development” report card:</p>
<p>Change in beliefs: 0
Benefit: 0</p>
<p>So, I guess I didn’t take advantage of the opportunities that I had or whatever. But, let me say a few things on the topic of religious beliefs:</p>
<p>1) All religious beliefs require faith, i.e. assumptions
2) I do not make assumptions without thinking about them and accepting them
3) The presentation of new assumptions, therefore, don’t affect my ideology because I am content with the assumptions I had originally made, which have been consistent with the rest of my experience
4) Any “development,” therefore, isn’t going to come from challenging my assumptions and “meeting new people” or whatever the buzzword is. I’ve done that. It’s been unproductive, because I recognize that my assumptions are exactly that and I recognize that people have different assumptions. Everyone except the most extreme people do. This is not something you need to do in college.</p>
<p>Again gadad, you have an incredibly presumptuous and arrogant belief system surrounding college. And again, I tell you that I can name on one hand the people I know who have been to college for something other than practicality and desire for a good job. The only argument I can see against this is if you by definition label their lives as empty because they don’t “experience what others do blahblahblah,” which is a weak argument in the first place.</p>
<p>I suggest you apply your own pedagogical philosophy to yourself.</p>
<p>Commenting on “Christian colleges” vs. the “secular,” Son is pushing me toward allowing him to attend a local (poorly-accredited) Bible College instead of attending Wabash College (IN), which has “Campus Crusade for Christ,” among other conservative/Christian organizations (also Wabash was founded by Presbyterians). Now Son thinks that becos Wabash is all-male, he thinks it might have a “larger gay population” (which isn’t the case/rather Wabash probably has the average proportion of “gays” in student body %); then Son’s been told (not by me/Mom) he should “only” attend local Bible College because everything else is “secular” (including local Catholic LAC, which he’s also been admitted to, along with Wabash as his former 1st-choice). I agree with folks posting that Wheaton (IL, where Billy Graham graduated), Taylor (IN) & Hillsdale are excellent choices for a faith-based yet rigorous academic environment. Also local “Bible College” is not part of our denomination (it’s independent “Church of Christ” & we’re Presbyterian-USA). I couldn’t get my son to apply to Hanover (IN), Wittenberg (OH), OH Wesleyan,
Hiram (Disciples of Christ), Baldwin-Wallace (U. Meth),
etc. because now Son thinks that it should “only” be this local Bible College for Fall 2011 or “nothing” (ultimatum). I’m a Miami (OH) graduate, but my son’s been told not to attend “secular” college. I agree that a student should be introduced to a diverse world-of-ideas while in college (definition of “education”), but Son wants to wrap himself up in a Christian “coccoon” & be limited in scope & tolerance (which isn’t the way he was brought up by our family to think). Colgate Dad, I wish you were my Son’s “Dad” to convince him that he
won’t be unable at a “secular” school to thrive (but now Son thinks that he won’t thrive unless he only attends local Bible College)! I’m heartbroken since I wanted to be a “Wabash College Parent”! We have til May 1st before deposit!</p>
<p>Here I am again, GADad (we’re new friends on C-C), & “Amen” & thank-you for comments from Colgate (I’m a Mom). My son’s cousin just committed to attend Ohio Dominican (Columbus) to play football (it’s becoming Division 2 this Fall 2011), but it was also financial concern for the family (to get a football scholarshp) since my cousin has a sister (2nd person in family in college at same time) attending Ohio University. But back to question of “faith-based” vs. secular college-choice, I’m all for a college which allows academic freedom/inquiry without censure. At the “Bible College” where my son wants to attend, they’re “Creationists” (we’re NOT) & all faculty are required to be members of “Church of Christ” (to teach the dogma/doctrine). We’re Presby-USA, but I’m afraid that Son is being influence by another “Bible College” graduate (who is my son’s mentor) who tells my Son that Bible College is ultimate choice (i.e., "don’t go to Catholic LAC, nor Wabash, or state U.). Also local Bible College isn’t well known & has only 36% graduation rate (need I say more?). I agree with the post right above (re: I also have a problem with an extremely doctrinaire religious college - it might ■■■■■■ the development of student’s educational maturity). “Amen, Brother”!</p>
<p>Banjolady, have you tried having him attend meetings of local Christian organizations at the other places he’s been accepted? I guess that would be my next step. If he meets other Christians there, perhaps he would realize he’s not “alone?”</p>
<p>Also, have you done some investigating in his desired major to see which places have more graduates working in jobs requiring that major or getting into grad school (pending his desire)?</p>
<p>Those are all things I have my kids do when they are looking at colleges.</p>
<p>I won’t pay for a school that doesn’t have a good rep for getting grads into jobs within my kid’s planned major. It’s just not worth the $$.</p>
<p>If “par” means similar or average, I’d offer opinion that none are on par. And that simply goes to say that none are the same. And that may be a good thing. As has been noted, all the ivies were at one time sectarian institutions founded for God’s glory and educating, among others, those who would personally and in some cases, professionally, preach and promote the Gospel. That of course, is about as far as one could imagine as institutional vision or mission for any of these institutions. As everyone on the planet knows, they are deemed to be the top of the food chain among academics. Does that in anyway mean they are superior to Wheaton, Pepperdine, indeed many other colleges and universities? I’d beg to say, not at all. There may be many godly people at any and all of the ivies, but collectively, I’d beg to say there are no more ungodly organizations in any industry. </p>
<p>But our egoes being what they are, and our inability to know and/or assess the definition of “quality” in higher ed, especially as Believers in Christ, can be very disabling in either knowing and/or communicating to others the essence of this. One previous poster commented on “worth the $$.” Well, that’s like picking Miss America, which is in one’s own eyes. I like the way Miss Texas looks in a 2 piece bikini, and you think Miss Iowa looks stunning in a strapless chartreuse satin gown. And they all got the “right” double-digit descriptors! :D</p>
<p>And in the end, one might be far, far better off getting fixed up w/ Miss Congeniality. They often time make better partners for living, and don’t care a rat’s behind about world peace. Or is it piece? You get the idea, maybe.</p>
<p>For all those considering the higher path of Christian higher education, “onward” I say! Allow me to suggest the most auspicious of colleges.</p>
<p>This University, besides following the teaching of Our Lord Jesus Christ, is also very able to discriminate between applicants.
The University is able to discriminate between different levels of discrimination. For those insufficiently discriminatory, the University will discriminate you right out of there.<br>
They didn’t allow interracial dating until the early 2000’s!</p>
<p>I am talking, of course, about Bob Jones University. Come, my disciples! Jesus calls!</p>
<p>Banjolady, I think the person who is telling your son all this stuff should be asked if he’s interested in paying for your son’s education. Or perhaps your son is planning to pay for his education. While I generally think a kid should be the one to make the college decision, I do think that if the parents think it’s a really, really bad decision, they shouldn’t be expected to pay for it.</p>
<p>I’d add Brandeis U to the list of academically rigorous, highly respected colleges with a strong religious atmosphere. I graduated from there in 1996, and obviously a lot’s changed since then, but current students assure me that there are still very strong communities of many Christian denominations on campus.</p>
<p>Before people jump all over me for omitting the obvious: Yes, Brandeis is a heavily Jewish university. When I was there, we probably had about 65% Jewish students, if you include the folks like me who were raised Jewish but were not actively practicing our religion. </p>
<p>However, of the remaining 35% or so, a large majority were Christian students who were, to some extent, observant and had chosen to attend a university where studying took precedence over partying and open discussions of religion–<em>all</em> religions–were part of the student culture.</p>
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You get the idea, maybe.</p>