Are there differences in faculty quality & access to them among the USNWR Top 30?

College Search & Selection
81

<p>momwaitingfornew,
It is clear from your post that you and I come at this topic from very different perspectives. If you are involved in the academic world, that would explain a lot. As you undoubtedly know, I am not an academic and while I am not hostile to academics, I have no where near the confidence in them that you express. </p>

<p>You convey a lot of faith in the hierarchical world of academia, but as a non-academic, I find so much of what is important to academics to be unimportant to me. Academics may know the talent level of some competitors in their race to perform research or publish papers, but to me (and practically everybody I know and come in contact with regularly) that is not reflective of or even relevant to the quality of education that they deliver to students. </p>

<p>My interest is the students and their ability to think critically, to problem-solve, to work effectively with others, etc. Does PA measure a faculty's ability to develop this? I doubt it, but it might, although we'll never know in the current PA methodology. I am curious if you think this is even important or measurable. </p>

<p>I am surprised that you so casually dismiss the inputs of students. I agree that their vision is limited and I would not envision them rating any school but their own (which presents its own set of problems in terms of how you interpret data across schools). If the attending students think that the faculty is terrific, but the academics don't (think Wake Forest, Tufts, Notre Dame, etc), then where does this get reflected in the assessment and the ranking? You would probably answer that their input has no scholarly value. Am I right? For a college student searching for a school, I would argue that the input of current students has a lot more value than how many papers Professor Smith published last year from a department that I could not care less about and in a subject that I have no interest in. </p>

<p>As a college student searching for a school, I'd rather have an open process that involved input from multiple sources (academics, students, alumni, employers) and let me make my own judgments about what is and is not useful. I'd love to see this student passion (or dislike) reflected in the rankings. But that would be introducing someone from outside the inner academic world as a check on faculty and I doubt that they would like to be accountable to anyone outside of their world. Same objection with employers. </p>

<p>In my view, it seems increasingly to me that the PA debate is all about control. Academics now have a monopoly on the system and the opinions being given. Once they give this up or share it, who knows where it could lead. And I would wager that that is a scary thought, particularly for those with great historical power and prestige (and high PA scores).</p>

82

<p>shawbridge,
I think you make some excellent distinctions, the most valuable to me being that the PA score most likely has value for those students who are looking to have a career in academia. If that is the case, then the score differences, while still larger than I would expect, make more sense to me. </p>

<p>As an employer, I don't think a lot about these matters and I wonder how many students at the top colleges really do go to pursue these degrees. For example, if you go to a UCLA or a U Michigan where there are 25,000+ undergraduate students, how many actually go on to pursue a career in academia? Perhaps you or someone else will have the specific data for the Top 30-40 colleges. </p>

<p>When I think about students emerging from college, I think about how well they have been trained to perform in the for-profit world. According to your post, my commercial interest in the student products of ABC college have no relevance to the PA score. If that is so, then even more than before, I believe that the PA score should be separated out from the rest of the USNWR ranking as it is sending me a mixed message about what is the priority at a college-teaching or research.</p>

83

<p>Many many people do not work in the for profit world.</p>

84

<p>barrons,
It would be interesting if anyone had the specific number for numbers of for-profit and non-profit. I don't, but I'm guessing that the ratio is very heavy to the for-profit side. In any event, shouldn't the PA reflect faculty quality for all student groups and not just those who are pursuing non-profit careers? And if academics can't provide that balance, shouldn't some other group be added that can? Or at least excise the PA so that the wrong message is not sent?</p>

85

<p>From the elite colleges and universities most students get advanced degrees. So those whose formal education ends with a bachelor's degree are in the minority. Hence graduate placement is highly relevant for students at the elite colleges.</p>

86

<p>If you don't care about the academic credentials and reputation of the faculty you are just being stupid. Your presumption that somehow a stellar faculty is a drawback is dumbfounding and growing tiresome. Please present one iota of evidence that someone with a great reputation and numerous awards is going to be a boring dolt. Usually it is just the opposite. They know more people, have better stories, and can often do more with a phone call than a three page recommendation from some nobody.</p>

87

<p>"For example, if you go to a UCLA or a U Michigan where there are 25,000+ undergraduate students, how many actually go on to pursue a career in academia?"</p>

<p>It's not a question of how many student go on to academia. It's how many students go on to graduate school -- law, business, medicine, etc. </p>

<p>"When I think about students emerging from college, I think about how well they have been trained to perform in the for-profit world."</p>

<p>This is where you and I differ the most, Hawkette. I don't see an undergraduate education as professional training. Yes, many students go on to get jobs, but not necessarily in their majors. Higher education is designed to broaden the knowledge of a student sufficiently to be able to tackle a variety of pursuits: entering the workforce, continuing studies at a more more intense level, starting a business, entering the Peace Corps, even raising children to be educated citizens. PA is not all about job recruitment. It's about bettering and challenging the individual. Schools that challenge their already-excellent students to go beyond expectations are those that score the highest in PA.</p>

88

<p>I don't believe that there is such a thing as a different education for not for profit vs for profit careers. Many people do the same jobs in either sector. Both need educated people who combine mastery of certain skills that they may have learned in class, and critical thinking ability.</p>

<p>I don't understand how asking the ranking of people who don't know anything about higher education would help illuminate the quality of education at any college. It might be interesting to find out how these people view the prestige of universities, but I bet you the prestige poll would have Harvard at the top. Not particularly informative.</p>

<p>If you want to know where students go for employment, then it is much more helpful to look at the reports many colleges issue about where their graduates end up.</p>

<p>I share the bafflement at not being interested in how many top scholars there are at a given college. The college is a community of scholars, it is NOT a continuation of high school. The faculty are professors, not "teachers". The skills they transmit are something more than how to solve a trivial problem (i.e. a problem for which the solution is known). </p>

<p>Asking local employers might be a good way to evaluate vocational high school programs, but for college it so misses the point.</p>

89

<p>momwaiting,
collegeboard.com provides some numbers on the quantity of students going to graduate school. Not many schools provided data (only 6 of the Top 20 and 17 of the Top 50), but the numbers aren't that big. The numbers generally range from 10-20% and that includes graduate business school students who typically spend 4-7 years in the workforce after undergraduate and the relevance of their undergraduate work is pretty low. So, the graduate school numbers are not inconsequential, but they are not the driving force for a majority of the students.</p>

<p>As for the workforce, I am NOT expecting students to find jobs in their majors. From what I've read, 2/3 or more of college graduates work in areas completely unrelated to their undergraduate majors. What I care about is how well they think, problem-solve, assemble and interpret information, etc. Those skills can be learned in almost any major and will be applied in any job, including non-profit. I don't see college as professional training for what you actually learn but rather for how you learn there. </p>

<p>Finally, I think that you could not be more wrong about the lower scoring PA schools as it applies to your last sentence,</p>

<p>"Schools that challenge their already-excellent students to go beyond expectations are those that score the highest in PA."</p>

<p>IMO, that is just not the case at the top schools that I have referenced. Think about these schools-places like W&M or Tufts or Notre Dame or Boston College or USC. I don't think for a minute that the faculties at these schools aren't challenging their students. Neither do I think that that is what PA is measuring.</p>

<p>afan,
We just have a fundamental difference. </p>

<p>I think you see the colleges existing 80/20 to serve the needs of scholarly work and the professors who do the research. </p>

<p>I see the colleges as best oriented 80/20 to teach students and develop their level of intellectual ability. </p>

<p>For your world, your viewpoint probably works just fine while mine would be a fish out of water. In my world, mine does just fine, but yours would likely fail. </p>

<p>Not saying one viewpoint or world is better than another, but college searching students would benefit from knowing what to expect when they get to campus because if they are expecting one world and they get the other, they are going to be mighty disillusioned.</p>

90

<p>Bravo to all of you for trying to make Hawkette see the value of professional opinion. Honestly, her opinion of herself and her relentless harping on a topic she knows absolutely about is getting tiresome.
Why should anyone believe Hawkette? Isn't this the same question she asks all of us to ponder when it comes to the educational professionals? While being annoying about the inadequacies and lack of transparancies regarding these professionals, she has not offered the CC readership one stitch credible information about herself. Yet she wants the readership to trust her judgment more than those who are charged with assessing the quality of education by USNWR. Is she a parent with an interest in where her child might be going to school? We already know that she is not an educator. So, exactly what is Hawkette's interest here? Why would she want to influence students and their parents to mistrust those assessing educational quality? Agenda? Bias? What is it that motivates Hawkette to keep on playing this one note so relentlessly? Talk about lack of transparency!</p>

91

<p>
[quote]
My interest is the students and their ability to think critically, to problem-solve, to work effectively with others, etc. Does PA measure a faculty's ability to develop this?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You know very well that PA is not measuring critical thinking development. USNews does not claim that it does. That may be an interesting metric if we could measure it, but I don't understand the relveance of whether or not PA provides you with this information. What does that have to do with PA? Every other measure in USNews ALSO fails to tell you about student intellectual development. Yet you not only accept those measures, you will retype them into a thread for any 17 year old who asks. Failure to measure something you value is an inconsistent criticism to level at PA.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In my view, it seems increasingly to me that the PA debate is all about control. Academics now have a monopoly on the system and the opinions being given. Once they give this up or share it, who knows where it could lead. And I would wager that that is a scary thought, particularly for those with great historical power and prestige (and high PA scores).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is utter fantasy. </p>

<p>I have explained more than once the role of USNews in developing and directing the Peer Assessment and determining its weight in any formula. Where have you seen any number of academics recently argue FOR peer assessment? In contrast, USNews tells us that nearly 40% don't even return the thing, and we have an entire cadre of schools who have decided to make that action (not returning the PA survey) a "statement." </p>

<p>This picture of an oligarchic group of paranoid PhDs fretting that their institutions might slip if the role of PA is altered, working through an elite, ivory-tower network of secretive power and control to manipulate a national news magazine's formula... well, it's amusing, but not based in reality.</p>

<p>You've shown that many of the top schools would still be top ranked if USNews removed PA. What's their role in this historical Power/Control monopoly? </p>

<p>If you want to talk about a numbers game, then you need to face the numbers involved in the survey. A large majority of respondents, the overwhelming majority of people who are giving ratings that collectively "shaft" Notre Dame and unfairly reward "overrated" schools like Michigan are from institution outside of the elite. Synovate only surveys three people at each school. Even with a 100% response rate, the top 25-30 power-hungry cabal of schools can only count for 75-90 of the total votes. The majority of the votes come from other schools, schools which may not really benefit from the PA ranking and who are decidedly outside of this mysterious coven of powerful elites you refer to. </p>

<p>PA may have some problems, and I think some of the criticisms of this measure are valid. But those problems are NOT traceable to or the fault of a cabal of academics at the top institutions. It may sound good to hint at conspiracy, but it is IMO fantasy and is not helpful to those young people trying to understand the benefits and shortcomings of USNews methodology</p>

92

<p>"Think about these schools-places like W&M or Tufts or Notre Dame or Boston College or USC. I don't think for a minute that the faculties at these schools aren't challenging their students...."</p>

<p>No one said they weren't. The PA certainly doesn't. They have fine scores that set them apart from the majority of schools. In fact, their PA signals they are excellent quality schools. There's just a tiny handful with higher scores. If you look at that handful you'll find schools that are fairly reknown for various things, often multiple things in the fields of academia.</p>

93

<p>Still no explanation. </p>

<p>On the one hand, presidents, provosts, and admissions deans cannot evaluate faculty quality across multiple competitor colleges. </p>

<p>On the other hand, Hawkette somehow can. </p>

<p>Therefore, the PA scores generated by the academics are unreliable, but Hawkette's opinions about which colleges are "better" than their PA scores would suggest should be given credence. The one attempt to present a set of criteria obviously is not what Hawkette uses, since she does not have the data that system would require.</p>

<p>Hawkette,</p>

<p>Some of us still don't get it. Please tell us how you evaluate faculty quality. Then explain why your method is better than PA.</p>

<p>The College Board data, limited as it is, reports percent of students who go to graduate or professional school immediately or within one year of graduation. Many students who get advanced degrees spend a longer time out of school than this. If you look into this a bit further, you will find that 60-70% advanced degree attainment is typical of elite colleges.</p>

94

<p>Gabriellaah, in all fairness to Hawkette, she is not the only one on CC who believes in the invalidity of the PA. She has made it her passion, that's all.</p>

<p>Still, I disagree with her, and with most of her points. <em>All</em> the components of ranking have a degree of unreliability. For that reason, I believe PA is as valid as any of the others -- and for me, it is a much more important measure than average SAT scores and selectivity. I want to know the perceived value of the education/degree itself, and not the quality of incoming students, although, of course, the quality of students has a lot to do with the educational environment.</p>

95

<p>PA is what it is. If you ask this group of people, that's what you get for answers. It may not be the most useful question. Much more interesting would be to ask department chairs about the quality of education in their fields in other colleges. The PA forces people, even those who are well informed, to make some sort of composite across all fields. </p>

<p>My big problem with USNews is the notion that by applying arbitrary weights, one can rank the colleges at all.</p>

<p>It is interesting, I suppose, to see selectivity data, or spending data. The problem comes when they try to say x% selectivity+ y% money+z% alumni giving= "best college" </p>

<p>Who says these are the right weights? Who says each of these factors should be in at all? Why is graduation the only outcome measure?</p>

96

<p>Mom. I have read your posts with interest, especially your most recent ones, and could not agree with you more. However, I must reiterate that I cannot help but wonder why Hawkette is so extraordinarily passionate about continously pushing her point of view, which to me, seems more like an agenda. Most of us are either parents, educators, or students...someone with a vested interest in kids' college choices. While continuously attempting to prove her point, none of us has any clue as to why Hawkette is so rabidly adamant, seeking every path with which she might prove her point. Why? Why is she making it her passion? Hawkette seems wants everyone to cry uncle....enough torture...and tell her that she is right, after all...Which, of course, she is not.
Here, in NYC, employers are very, very concerned about where their recruits went to college, law school, business school, etc. This is a very competitive market, in fact, more than I could have imagined before I had a child who entered the workforce. Luckily for her, she went to amazing schools, and in undergraduate school, the doors were opened widely when she applied for internships. She graduated from a top law school, and there, too, she was wined and dined and recruited. Some of her friends were not so lucky. These were those kids who went to great schools, but if they did not have that imprimateur of respect, it was, and continues to be so much tougher for them to be hired by the sort of firms or corporations, they had hoped for. Is this right? Probably not. But these employers need to have something to go by, and more often than not, it is the respect that certain schools garner. And, what was most surprising to me was that even after holding down a job or two, these young people are still required to provide gpas, undergraduate school, and graduate school info, as well as work experience info.</p>

<p>So deciding upon which college or graduate school one might attend has far reaching implications...much further than I would have expected, and is to be taken seriously. When Hawkette, who clearly has no experience with these issues, is so adamant about the subject of peer assessment, where educators are basically ranking the quality of education in a comparative manner, she is shaking the confidence kids and parents have in the word of the experts who are asked to give their opinions. Frankly, although perhaps imperfect, it is the best opinion we have, as consumers.
Preferring the opinion of students and employers, like herself, is really silly because it provides no insight or real help and guidance.
We know that Hawkette is an employer. Exactly whom does Hawkette employ? Are they professionals, or aspiring professionals? Is she in a competitive market? Is she comparing apples to apples? Does she employ kids who are moving into highly-powered careers? Does she know what it takes to get into a top graduate school? What does she know from real experience that can really be of help to kids and parents? I have asked Hawkette to let us know what her points of view are based on, but, thus far, she has declined. Without knowing anything about Hawkette, her opinion has no real credibility.</p>

97

<p>Gabrielaah,</p>

<p>NYC is perhaps at the far end of the spectrum on competitiveness, and law firms perhaps at the far end within NY in their obsession with where one went to law school. I have had professors at law schools tell of NYC firms not only asking students were they went to law school, and their law school gpas, but their LSAT and SAT scores.</p>

<p>So when people say it is more important what you do in college than where you go, that may exclude certain careers in the highest competitive areas like NY, maybe DC. For medicine, maybe NY, Boston, and SF.</p>

<p>As for Hawkette, yeah, I don't get it either. </p>

<p>It may be just the usual CC story that my favorite college is not as high in the rankings as I would like, so twist the rankings to move it up.</p>

98

<p>gabriellah,
Many thanks for all of the personal attacks, but I think it is pretty clearly you who has the agenda. </p>

<p>NYC is the most prestige-oriented market in the country and name brands of colleges and especially the graduate schools for law and business carry enormous weight there in their hiring practices. You denigrate my suggestion of an employer version of Peer Assessment, yet you seem to value the views of employers in NYC and how they make their hiring decisions. Glad to have you on board that employer views have merit and that they may actually know a thing or two about colleges. </p>

<p>Ok, so you think I am full of it and that I have an agenda (please tell me what it is so I can be sure to pursue it to the fullest) and that my views have no credibility. Hey, I’ve been called plenty worse and you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. But if you don’t want to believe me, then ask others. May I suggest then that you get on road and talk to employers around the country and ask them their opinions (just as you trust the opinions of those in NYC). Let me suggest what cities you might want to visit:</p>

<p>Boston, Hartford, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC, Richmond, Norfolk, Raleigh Durham, Charlotte, Atlanta, Orlando, Tampa, Miami, Buffalo, Detroit,. Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham, New Orleans, Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City, Memphis, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, Denver, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Seattle, Portland, Sacramento, San Francisco, San Jose, Oakland, Los Angeles, San Diego…</p>

<p>I probably missed a few and you might differ on a few as to their relevance, but IMO these are the major cities in America. My prediction is that some (mostly in the NE) will reaffirm your view of the world but much of the nation will think your and the academic’s views don’t reflect their reality on the ground in their day-to-day lives, in their companies, in their hiring practices and what they see with graduates of various colleges in the workplace. </p>

<p>(P.S. And if you’d like a list of the top employers and their contact information in many of these cities, I’d be happy to help you get it)</p>

99

<p>
[quote]
PA reflects the opinion of those in academia who are charged with making this assessment.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And many of those expected to make an objective assessment have admitted using it to punish their foes and help their friends. Others have admitted having no knowledge of the schools they are supposed to "objectively assess." We can safely assume that the leading source of their assessment is ... last year's edition of the USNews. </p>

<p>So, it's a nirvana for the manipulator and the ignorant.</p>

100

<p>
[quote]
When Hawkette, who clearly has no experience with these issues, is so adamant about the subject of peer assessment, where educators are basically ranking the quality of education in a comparative manner, she is shaking the confidence kids and parents have in the word of the experts who are asked to give their opinions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are educators really "ranking the quality of education" in a comparative manner? </p>

<p>Funny how the defenders (Kluge, Alexander, Barrons to name a few) of the much derided PA were denying that very basic fact a mere few weeks ago. I was told that the PA was not measuring the quality of education at all, but the reputation of the same. So which one is it? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Frankly, although perhaps imperfect, it is the best opinion we have, as consumers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The best opinion? So why even bother with the objective data! Let's revert to the original issue of USNews! </p>

<p>The PA does have one purpose ... and I believe that Robert Morse did explain it the best. It is a tool to level the playing field for non-private schools. Of course, we should dismiss his views as he is not an educator!</p>