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<p>If I wanted to be sensationalistic, I would have said the guy failed every single class, which is what happened. He probably would have been given some kind of second chance, if only for one more semester. But I doubt he would have been able to stay past freshman year without drastic and immediate improvement. My point wasn’t that the university was being harsh for kicking the guy out, but that it was so difficult that he failed every class.</p>
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<p>Or he partied nonstop on P/NR and forgot to pass his classes, which some freshmen do, and then he didn’t want to admit it to his parents.</p>
<p>I don’t see any evidence that this guy was incapable of passing his classes, only that he chose to not do so. Passing classes is surprisingly easy - if you make a solid attempt at learning the material and get help, it’s quite unlikely that the professor will fail you. In the vast majority of cases (and every case I’ve seen), it’s only when you don’t do your homework and don’t study for tests and don’t ask for help that you end up failing things.</p>
<p>My takeaway for everyone who’s reading this thread: if you’re admitted, you can do it. Yeah, it might be hard. Yeah, you might have to swallow your ego and ask for help. Yeah, it might suck to do that much homework. But you’re capable of doing the work, and you’re capable of succeeding. You just have to decide to put in the effort.</p>
<p>But sure, if you want to whine that it’s too hard and the adcoms screwed up and let you in and you absolutely can’t do the work, go for it. I just won’t have any respect for you.</p>
<p>What about the child prodigy who cracked and who now lives in the steam tunnels below MIT? LOL.</p>
<p>^ Shhhhh, we don’t talk about him in front of the prefrosh!</p>
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<p>You think you’re funny, but you’re not. Also, that’s the most flawed bit of logic I’ve ever come across. The adcom can (and will) sometimes misjudge and assume that an applicant can do the work, when he/she really can’t, so your whole premise is just plain stupid. Just because they go on record and say that the people they admit can do the work doesn’t mean that they really can. MIT just thinks they can. You said it yourself; they’re human.</p>
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<p>@Lobzz, perhaps you are assuming Karen’s question is rhetorical, when it may be real. After all, she acknowledges the adcoms are saying what they believe, not what is gospel.</p>
<p>Maybe I just like rephrasing things, but it seems whether someone can do the work is irrelevant, and I see ‘if you are admitted, you can’ a lot. I think there are a lot of things people can do that they will not, but then could they really? At risk of descending into rhetorical gibberish, I think it is the duty if a school to admit students they believe can and WANT to do it, and will stick it out.</p>
<p>When grad admissions is conducted, people look for the so-called tenacity required to do a PhD. Letters of rec should say something about this stuff. And should be from credible people. I think the same sort of thing must be the standard for admitting to MIT or any school that considers itself both difficult and uniquely so. </p>
<p>I believe it strange when people say ‘he could do it but did not’ and also say ‘you will get in if it is the right fit.’ Like Karen said, passing classes is not that hard for a fairly bright student, and if MIT is not admitting bright people, well there is an issue. Not saying this is the case of course. So really there was some major misunderstanding if someone who was both believed able to work and interested in doing so suddenly violated one of these hypotheses miserably. </p>
<p>Now there are external issues that may pop up, like medical, and those, well nobody can do much about.</p>
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<p>To be clear, i would say the university’s responsibility is to admit those who can and will. But admittedly one cannot have full accuracy, and it is an art. Still, when mistakes are made, I believe in re-examining what one is putting faith in, and where it should perhaps be shifted. And I do not consider admitting someone who can and won’t anything short of a mistake, albeit quite possibly a very tough to avoid one depending on circumstances.</p>
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<p>I agree with this.</p>
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<p>Actually, I don’t think I’m funny. But I do think I know a lot more about what it takes to succeed at MIT than you do.</p>
<p>Every year, I have freshmen come to me and tell me that they’re terrified that they won’t be able to handle the work and that MIT made a huge mistake in admitting them. When I was a freshman, I felt the same way - MIT has this lofty reputation of being full of hyper-brilliant people, and it’s easy to feel really dumb when you get an average score on a test if you’re assuming everyone around you is a super-genius. And, every year, I tell them to stop panicking and just believe in themselves - and after that, everything seems a lot easier (or so I found, and so they told me).</p>
<p>I don’t understand what message you’re trying to send, or to what audience you’re trying to pander. Sure, the adcoms screw up sometimes - but if you get admitted, it’s because they believe in you, and I don’t understand how saying “you might not be able to do the work, they might have made a mistake when they thought you could succeed” is going to help anything. Maybe you’ll prove them wrong, maybe you’ll prove them right. And maybe you think I’m just naive, but I believe that it’s within each student’s power to do either.</p>
<p>tl;dr even if you don’t believe in yourself, believe in a me that believes in you! :D</p>
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<p>And where exactly did I claim otherwise? My point was, and still is, that misjudgment is present everywhere in the world, even in admissions decisions. That’ll be all.</p>
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<p>Lobzz, this remark of yours is what seems to have incited argument. Adcoms make mistakes, that was conceded. The question is what you mean by academic incompetence, what you have to support that some were academically incompetent by your definition. I would say those who are unable and those who are unwilling are the two who fit. </p>
<p>Some seem to think one of the above is empty.</p>
<p>The 5 freshmen with 170 IQ will eke by. But the 2 with 175 are in big trouble. The 600 in the 140s can calculate that the probability is that the Nobel Prize winner in this class is likely from their ranks. The 100 down in the 120s will lie shamelessly about their IQ and so will become practiced at deception and thus rise fast to significant political or institutional authority.
Clarity of understanding, comrade, is born of clarity in the question.</p>
<p>Mathboy98, I was referring to those who are simply incapable of doing the work. I don’t even need to back that up with numbers because said people do exist; be it at Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Yale, etc.</p>
<p>Sure, and some take the view that this is an excuse for not trying enough to pass. That is, they don’t believe there are such people, maybe?</p>
<p>I myself think your message has a good point, which is that students should always try to check how weak they are relative to those around. I think it harsh and cruel to blame someone who finds it very unpleasant to struggle and doesn’t want to do it. Sure, one can blame them for choosing a school not right for them, but I know at that age, I was not as thoughtful.</p>
<p>As for those who are lazy, well I look down on it.</p>
<p>The problem is, they should do as much research as possible about schools they’re interested in before they even apply. It’s no secret that MIT is a supremely difficult school for even the brightest young men and women. It’d be great to see retention rates at or extremely close to 100% one day, but alas. It’s sad to see students earn “the golden ticket”, only to lose it to a gust of wind, no?</p>
<p>^ Yes, definitely. I think what you’re saying is that admissions sometimes makes mistakes and admits people who either can’t or won’t (even if either 1 of these is empty, surely both aren’t), and you’re urging Stodaire and other potential MIT students not to blindly trust the circumstances, and question if they are really good for the school. Which I wholeheartedly agree with. I do find it hard to believe someone would flunk out in the first year without either exceptional medical circumstances or something similar, if they really wanted to come to MIT, did their homework, and sought out all resources available.</p>
<p>Basically, yes. Students should genuinely try their best to do as well as possible; if that fails, there’s the mistake (disregarding medical issues here). Furthermore, admission isn’t a gift; it’s an opportunity. Which means it can either be taken advantage of or misused.</p>
<p>Is nt the first semester at MIT pass/no record? How are people flunking out of school after one semester?</p>
<p>^ how is pass / no record a free ticket out of flunking out? Is it that ‘no record’ means if you fail a class it is just not listed?</p>
<p>Perhaps someone who is failing all the classes might voluntarily decide to leave. Or if a certain minimal level of achievement isn’t maintained, maybe the university gets on your case.</p>
<p>It only means that the school is not going to throw you out. </p>
<p>People can decide to leave even if they get a couple of Bs and they are premeds hellbent on maintaining a specific GPA.</p>
<p>There’s a university Committee on Academic Performance that evaluates student performance, and if students are not performing up to standards, the CAP can take various actions, including asking students to go on academic leave. AFAIK, this would not be a consequence for a first-semester freshman who failed two or more classes on P/NR.</p>
<p>Re: this whole discussion, I just disagree fundamentally that the major reason students leave MIT without graduating is because they’re stupid or because the admissions office wrongly admitted them. In my experience, the major reasons students left MIT were health-related (mental health, physical health, the health of a close family member), and I imagine finances are also a factor for some. </p>
<p>I knew very few (or really, no) people at MIT who were totally incapable of doing the work. Even at MIT, there are paths to graduation that are easier to tread, and if you just want to graduate, it’s easy enough to pick a slate of classes that will allow you to do that. Of course, that’s not what most MIT students want.</p>