<p>MODERATOR'S NOTE: this was originally posted as a reply in a separate thread, and I'm starting a new thread here because the article includes a lot of back-and-forth among experts and is well worth a read.</p>
<p>I think too many kids are. There are kids in my high school with D’s and C’s in regular classes and 900 SAT scores going off to community or state-affliated schools. They did not try and do not care. They would be much better off to go to trade school or going into the work force. If you didn’t try in high school, you don’t deserve college…</p>
<p>Our culture dictates that we need a college education to be successful in the real world. If an employer looks at an application, the one who has her bachelors degree at some substandard college is still a better choice on paper than someone who never went to college. Everyone should at least have the chance to receive a college degree, because for many people it mean the difference between a livable wage and near poverty.</p>
<p>Sure, college should be a viable option for anyone. As uber_cast pointed out, today’s society demands college educated workers. Without some type of post-high school education, one can’t expect to be competitive in the workforce. </p>
<p>With that being said, college is not for everyone. Some may choose the military while others may decide to work at a fast food chain the rest of their life. Ultimately, the decision is up to the individual. However, there shouldn’t be barriers that inhibit one from receiving a post-high school education if they so desire.</p>
<p>If common wisdom says that only about half the kids that start down the path toward a four year degree actually complete that degree then the wheat and the chaff do separate. In Rocket6Louise’s point I wonder how many of those C/D students will actually finish the degree. For those high school C/D students that do complete the degree then I think the system worked in theory and in practice. There are probably also a goodly “chunk” of high achieving high school students who head off to college and fail to complete for some reason or another.</p>
<p>It’s true that every kid doesn’t need college. But every kid does need to finish HS and have a plan for afterward–for work, the service, job training, or whatever. </p>
<p>Still, what makes me very uneasy about the “too many kids in college” argument, is that there are a great many kids in this country who are still discouraged from college, sometime by dismissive high schools or unsupportive friends and family, sometimes by the costs of attending (personal as well as financial) that seem insurmountable. And of course these kids tend most often to be the rural poor, the urban black, the native american, the spanish-speaking. I can’t trust these arguments about not everyone should be in college under these circumstances–especially from someone like Charles Murray, who has written about the genetic inferiority of black people (The Bell Curve). </p>
<p>But even discounting Murray, “Everybody doesn’t have to go to college” has a very different ring to an affluent white family, where it might be laughed off, than it does to a working class black family, where it may come off as condescending and hateful. </p>
<p>Be nice to get past that point and look at what each kid specifically needs. But too many things in our history conspire to put us, as yet, a long way from that.</p>
<p>Yes, BigApple and even how do you “determine” who “gets to go”. It certainly can’t be high school GPA since all schools teach and score differently. It could be “standardized tests” but think of the uproar from the folks who say their kids “don’t test well.” The system as it is can do more to increase accessibility and financial ease but after that I feel the ground levels once again and each student has a chance of success or failure. In my opinion there is a huge difference between Everyone doesn’t have to go to college. and Everyone won’t have the chance to go to college.</p>
<p>The problem is that high school has degraded so much as a general matter that a high school diploma no longer means anything in terms of basic job skills. The task of ensuring that students have what amounts to a high school education has fallen (risen?) to the first two years of college.</p>
<p>We need to make high school mean something – including vocationally-oriented training for those who want it. Then it would make sense to talk about how much demand there really is for additional education, and what value it adds. Right now, however, there’s no question that it adds value – an AA degree ensures that someone can probably do simple arithmetic and handle paperwork.</p>
<p>It’s an excellent conversation. I am not sure I think the high schools have degraded, but I do think there is more emphasis on “keeping” all kids in school for the entire 4 years which may or may not be a good thing. And I think the expectation is that if a student manages to get through all four years no matter how much assistance then they surely must go to college. The concept of kids taking “remedial” college classes is really quite frightful. I think sometimes people forget that our CCs also have strong programs in the AA field leading to Pharmacy Tech, vet tech, basic business/software skills, allied health, graphics technology skills and other skills that lend themselves to fulfilling careers. In our area we still have fairly vibrant public vo-tech schools that service the high tech manufacturing skills, automtotive repair, trade apprenticeships, or construction managment in addition to overlap in many fields with the CCs. A handful of seniors in my son’s class that are planning on pharmacy school are taking pharmacy classes at the vo-tech their senior year in high school. There are options for students that can lead to jobs or to later entry into on-line or traditional colleges degrees if needed or simply will augment their college plans. I think most of the children of parents on this discussion board are so focused on college we may not be as aware of all the options that really do exist. I don’t disagree that there may be kids heading to college that probably shouldn’t, but I’m convinced that all that go that “should” graduate probably do and the rest fall off to other options. I think that the colleges that have strong programs in such atypical areas such as Resort Management, Recreation, Physical Therapy, Criminal Justice, Media Production and the like which may at one time have not been taught in a traditional college setting blurr the lines. Some schools that decades ago were called “business schools” are now “colleges” or even “universities.” so the concept of the traditional 4 year education is not quite as sharply defined yet all those kids studying all those non-traditional majors are enveloped in the statistics. They really are, for the most part, getting paraprofessional training as opposed to a traditional liberal education and are “counted” in the “kids in college” counts.</p>
<p>NO not every kid needs a college degree. Not even close</p>
<p>However every kid needs college and/or some kind of post High School technical training or skill development.</p>
<p>Kids who are mechanics, plumbers, electricians, welders, carpenters, etc do not need a 4 year degree. They do need a solid apprenticeship program or a good CC training program. </p>
<p>These students will be far from a life of poverty and they don’t need a 4 year college degree. That is the type of thinking that has gutted this countries vocational programs in many high schools and we are the poorer for it.</p>
<p>I think one of the dominating problems in today’s education situation is the idea that four years of white collar education is needed in order to succeed in life. There is far too many negative connotations for students that attend community colleges and vocational training as being “dumb” and “incapable” of learning and making a viable lifestyle.</p>
<p>Example, my high school did not encourage or even mention the possibilities of job training, military work, or going into the work force after graduation. They constantly pressed that a four year education would be a better investment in the long run for every student (regardless of interest and capabilities) because it guaranteed better jobs. I did not pursue a four year education because I knew that it would be something that I’d set myself up for failure. When everything is said and done, it turns out that I’m making three times as much income as my friends with MASTER’S degrees and I’ve only stepped foot in one year of vocational training.</p>
<p>I think college should be reserved for those that wish to pursue professional degrees (medical, law, politics, ect) instead of having countless majors (art, history, foreign studies, ect) without job prospects for the future. Too many students fall into the belief that they will have a high paying job simply because they had graduated with four extra years of schooling only to find out that more students are like them looking for the same jobs after graduation.</p>
<p>IMO there are several things at play here. One is that the population is aging later and later (sounds like an incorrect phrase but its true – at 65 one is no longer considered “old”, you are “old” now when you are at least in your 70’s). Thus, the country needs to do something with the young population. Hence the myth of “everyone” needs to go to college. Meanwhile there are plenty of people that love to work with their hands whether as mechanics, master carpenters, etc. that really dont need a college per se, just a good vocational program in their craft. The second thing is, as someone mentioned, the degradation of high schools. Its not just community colleges or state colleges that must teach remedial courses. Look at the top 25 LACs and see that they all require now a form of freshman seminar – in reality a writing remedial course.</p>
<p>I disagree that freshmen seminars are remedial writing.</p>
<p>I DO agree too many kids are going to college without any thought or plan. It is just the next required step & an excuse to party and avoid real life. This year I have heard several kids state they are doing it for the healthcare benefits. Not enough jobs, so much easier to stay on Mom or Dad’s healthcare as a student.</p>
<p>The problem in high school now is that they only focus on making sure you get to college. However, college is not for everyone. Four years in school is not going to help someone who wants to be a plumber (nothing wrong with that, I come from a family of tradesmen :)), but a college degree is seen as the be all end all in our generation. </p>
<p>College is just seen as many as “the next step”, what one is “supposed to do” without any real thought of what it can contribute to you or what you can contribute to it. Many, many students see it as high school part 2 rather than a segue into a career/being out on one’s own. </p>
<p>I’m going to throw this out there too- one of the horrendous things about college now is that many students aren’t paying for it on their own. They either don’t have to worry about their tuition bills because mommy and daddy and therefore have little incentive to get their money’s worth (as it is not their money) or they are taking out loans that they don’t have to think about until they graduate, which is very far off. When my parents were in college, many many more students were working full time jobs to pay for their tuition and therefore it was much more meaningful to them. Is this a blanket statement? Absolutely not, just my own personal observance. </p>
<p>EDIT: Btw, I am one of those without support from parents, so we do still exist, just not to the extent that they used to.</p>
<p>It’s important that every kid be encouraged to take college classes/go to college if they are interested. They may find that college courses are more interesting than those in high school. They may fall in love with a subject that’s not taught in high school. More important than “getting the degree” is learning how to think and exposing yourself to new and different ideas. That can start to happen with even one class. Taking college and trade school classes aren’t mutually exclusive. Who would ever discourage a kid from taking some classes at the community college if they were interested because the kid got Cs and Ds in high school?</p>
<p>Also, there is a taboo on trade professions nowadays. Many students who want to go to trade schools are looked down on as being dumb or lazy. My father is a master plumber who owned his own business and before his accident, we were making much much more than almost anyone I know with a bachelor’s degree. He was one of those who went to college, decided it wasn’t for him, dropped out after one semester, and got his master’s license in about two years, which is almost unheard of in the trade world. But, when he was in school (80s), it was perfectly acceptable to go on to a trade rather than college. Now, I told one of my AP teachers that I wanted to be a plumber and she was absolutely horrified. Why would a bright kid (who tests in the genius range on IQ tests) want to work a menial job like plumbing? It’s not what smart kids do. Honestly though, I still wish sometimes that I could become a plumber. Do people realize what the average female master plumber makes? Probably more than I’ll ever make with my degree, that’s for sure. </p>
<p>Also, one thing my dad taught me, is that trade workers are some of the only recession-proof jobs. People can go to universities and get degrees in game design and those jobs can easily be shipped out to India and China. However, you don’t see many Chinese plumbers being imported from China. Those with degrees are often dispensable. Those that work in trades are not easily imported. </p>
<p>I foresee a backlash with colleges in the future though. With all of these students going to college, the in-demand jobs are going to be the trades. Perhaps trade schools will see a huge surge when my generation has children. </p>
<p>Ok, sorry for the long ramble :).</p>
<p>What I’m worried about is that my kids are going to graduate from college and there won’t be enough entry-level “white collar” jobs out there. Seems like most of the new jobs that are being “created” are not the kind of job you prepare for with an liberal arts degree. So, yes, maybe too many kids are going to college.</p>
<p>I’m constantly wondering if I’m doing the right thing by encouraging that kind of higher education, instead of a trade or profession like health care.</p>
<p>There is another aspect to college. A close relative who was employed as a police officer for several years decided to go to college (he remained on the force). It changed him. He began to see and approach the world differently and more humanely. He became, in his estimation, a far better police officer. Broadening one’s educational experience has ramifications beyond simply getting a job. None of the discussants seem to consider that one of the central aims of eduction is simply to be more educated. Education may change the way a plumber experiences his job, the way a carpenter sees a piece of wood, or the way massage therapist sees a client, all good reasons to go to college besides the money earned.</p>
<p>Not everyone should go to college and we should encourage and applaud all kinds of post-highschool paths. It’s unfortunate we hold the college path in such regard and downgrade perfectly wonderful and valuable paths such as trade school. </p>
<p>At the same time I do not believe that this discussion can or should be reduced to college being judged useful only if it provides job skills training. Education more broadly, in and of itself, has huge value to individuals and to a democrat and civilized society. You know…there is giant value in having a population that can read and understand the newspaper, comprehend competing complex arguments, possess a solid grounding in world history and geography, or knowledge about basic economic principles. </p>
<p>Even if someone does not graduate, there is terrific benefit to having received more education. But alas that goal can be met by revamping and improving our public highschool system (and enabling people to pursue education at the higher level).</p>
<p>Anyone who is acquainted with me here knows how much I am an advocate of higher education. That said, I think we must make non-4-year degree options more attractive as well as more employable. I think career counseling needs to begin long before age 22: it should occur at every stage of a young person’s life: from career days in high school to public career centers and community college career centers after high school, to internships routinely available from age 16 through age 22. Vocational opportunities have improved in some ways vs. 30 years ago: we have niche vocational schools now (medical, business, culinary, and technical), but those feel segregated from the assumptions of the typical high school graduate. I think they should have a presence at the very least on both high school and community college campuses. In my area, there is in fact a special vocational option for high school students, at a special site. Its orientation is practical: biology is forensics, for example. There are medical options and other practical tracks as well. But I haven’t seen that replicated elsewhere. It is concurrent with high school enrollment. It serves two purposes, minimum: introduces the non-academically inclined student to a realistic career alternative; provides the student with legitimate off-campus credits toward the h.s. degree.</p>
<p>But I guess the idea that has always intrigued me the most is the Canadian system of Coop higher education. I’ll bet if we had that system here, we would have far fewer unemployed or inappropriately employed college graduates right now, even with a tight economy.</p>
<p>JMO.</p>