<p>There are IT jobs that look for Microsoft, Cisco, Apple, etc. certifications and these may give you a leg up on the competition for support jobs.</p>
<p>“Most CC nursing programs are top rate and have stringent placement requirements. I am quite familiar with a program that requires extensive placement examinations, and anything less than a first time 95% student pass rate on the independently provided nursing board exams by students is considered unacceptable.”</p>
<p>I have no direct experience with the nursing programs, but my professional life revolves around working with nurses, and now numbers in the 100’s of work contacts. I can tell you examples of what the vast majority of nurses with a recent ‘degree’ cannot do:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>convert a drug amount into cc/time by infusion given an order for mg/time*kg if they do not have a table. Algebra required</p></li>
<li><p>covert grams to moles. Have any idea of the difference between a Meq and a mmol. Basic chemistry required.</p></li>
<li><p>Mix two solutions of differing concentrations together in unequal amounts to make a desired concentration solution. Basic Algebra required.</p></li>
<li><p>Read physician progress notes and be able to succinctly summarize main active medical problems during a hospital stay, therapeutic plan, and diagnostic results. No, it is not the MD writing.</p></li>
<li><p>Name pharmacologic classes of drugs best avoided in elderly men with big prostates.</p></li>
</ul>
<h2>- Name pharmacologic classes of drugs best avoided in patients with Parkinson’s Disease.</h2>
<p>As a gross generalization, today’s nurses after graduation lack basic math, chemistry, biology, and medical backgrounds, and often have low to nil ability to apply what they have learned during school, at work. It is not my intent to rant about nurses, but to leave little doubt that vocational schools (and, by extension, society) are harmed by open admission policies no less than colleges.</p>
<p>People like to talk about the value of an engineering degree, the skills conferred, and how it teaches one to think. I think that’s a bunch of BS. The difference with an engineering degree is that they weed out lower performers. The bottom 30% of entering engineers don’t graduate with an engineering degree and the average GPA is much lower.</p>
<p>That is why an engineering degree from a low ranked state college still has a significant amount of value on the job market (whereas virtually no other degree from the same school does).</p>
<p>I’d rather get some welding certifications or take some vocational electronics classes than graduate with an English degree. You can make 60K/year without degree relatively easily as long as you have skills which create value in our economy. I know 24 year old electricians with benefits making 80k/year w/OT.</p>
<p>Overall, we don’t do a great job in directing kids to various career options. “Vocational” classes at the high school level are often outdated and don’t equip the kids with marketable skills. When I was in the tech industry, we often saw kids being pushed into classes dealing with old technology. Community colleges and for-profit schools are a little better at keeping current.</p>
<p>How much emphasis we place on different careers vs. college may well depend on our expectations for the future of our economy. If we assume that most manufacturing will go offshore, then we shouldn’t be training kids for manufacturing-related jobs. In that scenario, pushing bright kids toward college may not be a bad idea, as business jobs will likely require the communication ability and versatile intellectual skills four years of college will produce. That’s not the only scenario for the future, of course.</p>
<p>Our local Middle School/High School lost shop classes due to budget cuts a decade ago (insuarance & equipment costs).</p>
<p>Our county has a regional Tech School, but entry requires “luck of the draw” literally. You either get chosen in lottery or you don’t get in.</p>
<p>I’d bet this has happened in other areas. And in my town, the thought of paying big $$$ ($14,500-$30,000 tuition varies depending on program) for post high school training is “ridiculous”</p>
<p>The pendulum will swing back. </p>
<p>And Mr. Payne – Please tell me where you see $60k w/out degree easy, because it sure isn’t in my area.</p>
<p>But the joy of not only reading, but understanding and enjoying literature is well worth that English degree even if on is a Barista.</p>
<p>I agree that the HS system isn’t working out. The school districts (at least here) have a vested interest in keeping their kids in high school for as long as possible, because they get paid for it. Then students take classes they don’t necessarily want to.
Similarly with college. Students spend a longer time on a degree because they have to take courses not relevant to their intended (if any) field.</p>
<p>
Are you serious? Master tech mechanics, certified welders, industrial electricians, oil field workers (drilling rig/workover rig), truck drivers (not quite sure on this particular one).</p>
<p>In my district, my high school had 6200 kids in 4 buildings (all on the same campus). For this reason, we were able to have distinctive trade tracks. We had a fully working garage, jewelry crafting, and all sorts of technical jobs that aren’t available at smaller high schools because there isn’t a huge demand. I honestly think the answer to the high school crisis on only focusing on college-bound kids is to have larger high schools. Yes, people advocate against them, but our school spends less per student than any other district in my county. I think that larger high schools allow for more opportunities and chances for students besides college-bound students to thrive.</p>
<p>I’d be amazed if any of the parents who believe that “not every kid should go to college,” would be okay with their kid being one of those who didn’t.</p>
<p>It’s easy to say that others should, but would you support your child choosing to forego “hard” school and instead take the easier vocational training?</p>
<p>I have a feeling that in that situation most parents would declare that their children were too young to know what was best, which very well may be true. </p>
<p>If you are one of the parents who would rather see your child at a four year university than at a trade school, then I really don’t think you have any place in saying that “not all people should go to college,” because you are the exact person who subtly pushes that notion upon the entire nation.</p>
<p>If you truly would be happy and proud to see your child take the 2 year path then I think you’re an incredible parent, and from my experience, I’d be willing to bet that you consequently have a much closer relationship with your kid(s) than most parents =).</p>
<p>You don’t think parents are proud of children who do a military career? Or those who become auto mechanics? Those who become contractors?</p>
<p>I said that those who are equally as proud of those paths as a 4-year university path are great parents.</p>
<p>“If you truly would be happy and proud to see your child take the [2 year] path then I think you’re an incredible parent”</p>
<p>just insert “trade school,” “military,” “apprenticeship,” or “job straight out of college,” into the [ ] if you would like =).</p>
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</p>
<p>I come from a military family with a father who went to trade school. They are firm believers that college is for some people and not for others. My parents are incredibly supportive of me and they told me to do whatever makes me happy, whether that was military or trades-woman or college. Parents should be happy as long as their kids are happy.</p>
<p>Easier vocational training? Show me a college grad (well, let’s exclude mechanical engineers) who can repair a BMW, or who can set up and maintain an HVAC system.</p>
<p>I would have to disagree with the statement that High School achievement should determine wheter one goes to college or not, I was a complete underachiever in highschool, especially in math. It turned out that I didn’t have such a big problem with math as I did with how concrete this math was. Now that I am taking more abstract classes I am always setting the curve, but from my highschool record no one would have guessed this, nor would I have guessed (back in hischool) that I would study math in college.</p>
<p>^ There is a difference between an underachiever going to a trade school by default and someone who WANTS to go to trade school and is forced into college.</p>
<p>Don’t be so quick to judge. I fell into that snobbery during high school, as I whisked through honors and AP courses. I shouldn’t have been such a snob, either…I had gone through a terrible situation that derailed me early in my high school career, and managed to pull it together at the last minute. I “shouldn’t” have gotten into the schools that I did.</p>
<p>Now that I’m graduating and applying to medical school, I have more perspective than I did upon entering college. Don’t be so quick to discount those who barely graduated high school and went to community colleges. Some of them dealt with situations that no child should have to encounter, and some simply blossomed later. Some of the top scholars in my (very competitive) program needed “13th grade” (combined with the fact that they CHOSE to keep at it), and others returned to community college after a hiatus. Point is, those who “shouldn’t” attend college won’t make it through all four years (or even one, or two), and some of them might come back when they’ve decided they’re ready and take the bull by the horns. Nobody will make it through (or far past) community college unless they deserve to do so, so relax.</p>
<p>On the flip side of the coin, some of the top students from my (competitive) high school faltered during college and barely graduated. Some are doing well enough to have a good chance of getting into med school, or law school, or grad school, but really have learned nothing and merely skated by so far based upon their academic prowess. They won’t make it through life, or grad school for that matter, on that alone. I’ve worked in the medical field and witnessed medical students quit after a lifetime of being told that they’re top-notch, because they never gained any perspective on life.</p>
<p>That said, I do agree that students should try to push through it as long as it’s for the right reasons. I don’t believe that they should do so because they’re parents are pushing them. My mother was supportive of all of us going to school, but only when the time was right. I have lots of cousins, and a few of them were “pushed through” very prestigious schools without any sense of WHY they were doing it, and though it’s always nice to have a degree, they’re not using their degrees and are still trying to figure out what they really want to do when they grow up…</p>
<p>While I have always known (the key word here) that I would attend college, that is not the case with the rest of my family and relatives. Not all of my relatives have a high school diploma and very few have attended college, and not usually as traditional students at that. They have the vocational jobs mentioned above: plumber, contractor, and machinist and are very happy and successful at their jobs. College is not the best choice for many people, even current teenagers. Vocational schools are a great option and teach needed skills. While it is sad that a high school diploma cannot get the same caliber of jobs as yesteryear, that is the situation we have created for ourselves. I applaud my cousins and other relatives for deciding that they did not need/want a college education to achieve their dreams, even if that means a couple years of college with no degree. It’s looking like this will be the choice of both my siblings and I am proud of them.</p>
<p>All my life I have been taught to respect people for who they are inside, not their degrees. Some of the most intelligent and nicest people I have ever met never attended college. If one has the motivation and desire to attend college however, I feel that finances should not get in their way. Without a major scholarship, paying for college would be very difficult for my family. I was also lucky that my state will pay for dual-enrollment at any 2-year, technical, and some 4-year public colleges and universities during one’s junior and senior years. This gave me the opportunity to attend classes both on-campus and online with students many years, sometimes decades older than me. You know what, these students were committed to learning as opposed to those having a 4-year vacation on daddy’s dime. The military is also an excellent option for training and motivating people who realize what military service entails.</p>
<p>Yes, too many people are attending 4-years colleges that would be better suited to 2-year and vocational programs. If we upgraded K-12 education, a high school diploma may even be enough of an education for more people. As many posters have said, professions such as plumbing, construction, truck driving , and welding can pay very good wages. I seriously considered being a machinist or garbage man and attending night school if I so desired. There are many paths to the American Dream and many require little or no education after high school.</p>
<p>I am the parent of four: one recent college graduate, two still in college and one recent graduate of a technical/vocational high school. I am equally proud of all four. </p>
<p>It was evident early on that my youngest was a different type of learner. No less intelligent, he just learned differently. He was also extremely mechanical. By the time he was in fourth grade, I had told him he would be better suited going to the regional technical high school, as opposed to the public high school that his siblings would be attending. The three older siblings were each strong academic learners and honor students. </p>
<p>Little did I know that there was not a spot for every student who wanted to attend this vocational/technical high school. Each year there are 300 applicants for 100 openings.
This is a shame. Fortunately, my son was accepted. The days of the “not so bright” kids going to trade school are over, however that stigma still exists. In eighth grade when he was applying, he was told by students who were applying to private high schools that he must be going to the “voke” because he was dumb. </p>
<p>Fast forward four years. He graduated in May with a dual diploma–high school diploma and technical school diploma, his being in Information Technology. He was immediately hired by the local public school system as a Technology Support Specialist at a good salary and excellent benefits. He holds several IT certifications, including Comp-Tia, Net-plus, Microsoft and Cisco. Interestingly enough, he ran into a guidance counselor at his new job who told him that she has a harder time getting students into that technical high school than into the private high schools.</p>
<p>What is a shame is the students who fall through the cracks: the ones who can’t gain admittance into such a program and are forced to stay at the public high school. In our town, the high school only offers a college prep curriculum. That leaves such students in a position of not being able to perform, leading to them getting into trouble or even dropping out of school. </p>
<p>When I was in high school, every school had it’s own trade school. Back then, of course, those who “couldn’t cut it” in the high school were relegated to the trade school.
Some of those students are right now laughing all the way to the bank.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, my son had several friends interested in pursuing the technical school avenue whose parents forbade them, telling them they “had to go to college.” This is another misconception. These technical schools have a college prep curriculum. My son took honors classes there. More than 50 percent of graduates from his class went on to college, many of them four-year universities. A couple of years ago a graduate went on to an Ivy League School. These students will always have their technical training or “trade” to fall back on if they need it.</p>
<p>My son never felt he was “less than” his older siblings. In fact, they hold him in high regard because of his technical expertise. (Comes in handy when they need their computers fixed!)</p>
<p>“Perhaps one solution is to turn vocational schools into places where smart kids may wish to go, and effort is required to successfully complete”</p>
<p>There were many smart kids at this vocational school. Smart doesn’t always translate into how many AP classes you take. The school was by no means effortless. In fact it was far from it.</p>
<p>My high school graduate son is making only a little less than my college graduate son who was a science major and works in a bio-tech lab. However, he actually has far better benefits so, comparing total compensation, I would say he is a bit better off.</p>
<p>He will continue to further pursue his technical education. He is now able to do it at the expense of his employer. He was adamant that he did not want to further his education immediately after high school, and we as parents supported that. He was fortunate to have landed such a good job. The other finalist for the job was 35 years old! </p>
<p>My point is that technical schools can provide a fantastic education for our children. It’s just a shame that all studens who wish to pursue this path cannot, and it’s a shame that some parents are not open-minded to it.</p>
<p>As my neighbor, who teaches at a vocational/technical high school says: “vocational high schools are a hidden jewel.”</p>
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<p>I agree, and that’s such a shame. This is not the British attitude at all. They’re far more pragmatic. Across the pond it is not necessarily an indication of one’s intelligence, let alone one’s worth, to choose a non-University path to a career.</p>