Are we sending too many unprepared/underprepared students to college?

I thought I had made my position pretty clear, but maybe not. The proliferation of these credited seminar courses allow some underprepared students to avoid some other more challenging courses they needed to take to prepare them for their careers. I don’t know whether that’s the intention or purpose by the college (and hopefully not), but it could be the end result.

There’re all sorts of seminars on a college campus and they provide useful forums to introduce or discuss ideas. All students can benefit from such discussions without receiving course credits. However, if they are used, by some students, as substitute for standard college courses, then their benefits may be outweighed. I’m also not opposed to offering limited number of such seminars to first-term freshmen to help them with their transition to college.

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Using those UCLA Fiat Lux 1 unit P/NP seminars would be an inefficient way for a slacker to dodge work or challenge, since UCLA allows only 2 P/NP courses every 2 quarters.

A student trying to dodge work or challenge would probably seek out “physics for poets” type courses that are worth more than 1 unit and take them P/NP. Other common means (often advocated on these forums) would include taking courses that substantially repeat material from AP credit or other advanced course work taken in high school.

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A slacker would likely use all available methods to dodge work or challenge, wouldn’t s/he? Any one of them may not be efficient or sufficient by itself, but together they offer the slacker more and better opportunities to avoid work and/or challenge.

Except that the UCLA rule limiting the number of P/NP courses means that the slacker at UCLA who takes a 1 unit P/NP course forgoes the ability to take a typical 4 unit course P/NP that would allow up to four times as much slacking.

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That doesn’t appear to be the case, according to this page:
https://caac.ucla.edu/policies/grading-repeats/#:~:text=Repeating%20Coursework,Passed%20courses%20(see%20below).

A UCLA student can take up to 5 units of P/NP each quarter (i.e. limited by the number of units, not courses). S/he could take one or two fiat lux courses in combination with another full-length P/NP course, for example.

Grades specifies the limit by number of courses rather than units.

It’s unclear then which one is correct. Leaving that aside, there’s also the possibility that mandatory P/NP courses (such as the fiat lux courses) don’t even count toward the limit (i.e. only the courses that a student chooses to take on a pass/fail basis would count), as I’ve seen in other schools.

There are 31 one credit fiat lux honors seminars being offered for the fall of 2022, each limited to an enrollment of 20 or less students, so about 620 spots, max. There are around 31,000 undergrads at UCLA, including around 6500 first year students. I guess “numerous” is in the eye of the beholder.

Also, while it is technically possible for non-freshman to take these courses, enrollment is limited to freshman during the both first and second enrollment pass. What this means is that non-freshman cannot sign up for the classes until around the time classes start, after freshman have completed their enrollment. Practically, there are very few spots for non-freshman.

So if your hypothetical non-freshman slacker is hoping to skate by in OBGYN 19: Biology of Stem Cells and Its Application in Regenerative Medicine or ECON 19: Introduction to Machine Learning with Python, they may be disappointed.

I don’t think this is accurate. Specifically, I don’t think that UCLA freshman have access to non-graded quarter long discussion seminars lead by prominent professors in the field. If I am mistaken, though, I’d be glad to be corrected. What is your support for your claim above?

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According to UCLA, they offer up to 200 fiat lux courses annually:
https://www.uei.ucla.edu/academic-programs/fiat-lux/
Presumably, about 1/3 (or up to 66) of them are offered each quarter on average. If 31 of them are honor fiat lux seminars as you claim, then the other 35 or so must be regular (non-honor) fiat lux seminars, which I presume are also credited (perhaps they just don’t qualify for an honor degree).

Every research university (perhaps even non-research universities) offers multiple free seminars nearly every day on all sorts of topics. They’re generally open to everyone, at least at the schools that I’m familiar with. Does UCLA exclude freshmen, or other students, from attendance? Room/hall sizes may limit capacity but I don’t know any school that has specific restrictions on freshmen. Do you?

What is the big deal about specific classes at UCLA and why does it matter to the larger topic proposed by the OP?

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All fiat lux courses are designated as honors courses, and it turns out that “up to 200” is a lot less than 200.

Here is a link to the fiat lux offerings for Fall 2022: Undergraduate Education Initiatives | Courses & Enrollment Deadlines By my count there are 31 fiat lux courses offered for Fall 2022 (excluding one cancelled course.) For Spring 2022, there were the same number. And many of these courses get repeated semester after semester, so the reality is that there are limited options for the “slacker” looking to pile up these 1 credit courses to try to reach the 180 credit requirement, especially since the courses don’t count toward major courses or electives or general education requirements.

Also, as educational opportunities go, attending a ten week limited enrollment discussion seminar lead by an expert in the field is on an entirely different level than occasionally attending a one off lecture, schedule and workload permitting. That what this is supposed to be about, right? Educational opportunity?

No idea, but my guess is that such lectures are not limited to 20 freshman and a prominent professor, nor do many extend for 10 weeks with the same participants

I suppose if you come up with a list of the plethora daily lectures and seminars you claim are available to freshman, I could be pursuaded otherwise, but as it stand I don’t think yours is a viable alternative.


Good question. It seems to be a big concern for OP that many college kids aren’t being “challenged” enough, and OP singled out UCLA’s fiat lux freshman honors seminars as examples of the types of courses that “allow some underprepared students to avoid some other more challenging courses they needed to take to prepare them for their careers.” For reasons explained throughout the thread, IMO, this misunderstands the program in purpose and practice, and with a school as prominent and popular as UCLA, it seems worthwhile to set the record straight so that prospective students aren’t mislead. Also, I suspect that underlying this discussion are two opposing perspectives on the value and purpose of a college education.

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Can we move on from UCLA please?
6 years after initial enrollment, less than 60% of US students earn a bachelor’s degree, nationwide. Apparently large numbers of students enrolled are either unprepared for or unsuited to higher education-they didn’t all leave due to finances.

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My guess is finances are primary reason. But even setting aside financial reasons, the rest didn’t all leave because they were academically “unprepared or unsuited” either.

For example, I’ve known plenty of people who were academically prepared, but may have been unsuited to succeed emotionally, functionally, and/or socially. Are these included in “unprepared and unsuited” students you are referring to, or are you referring to people who were not adequately prepared academically? If the former, is this the responsibility of the high schools?

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Federal minimum wage is $7.25. Colorado minimum wage is $12.40 and Denver’s is $15.87 (going to $17 in 2023). If a worker works 30 hours per week, the employer does have to offer health care. We also have a new law that pays for family leave and some sick leave. Colorado also has expanded medicaid so if the employee only makes $15k, he’s qualify for medicaid.

A service job might not be enough to live on, but it can be. Three of my 4 brothers do not have college degrees. Oldest has been a ski patroler/EMT and in construction for 45 years. All ‘on the job’ training. He’s raised 4 kids on that income. Youngest is in sales, owns a condo and is pretty happy with his salary and life. Third is under employed and that’s his choice. I think if he had a college degree he’d still be underemployed (he’s lazy). The one who does have a college degree owns his own business, which he owned before he graduated from college. His degree may help him run the business, but wasn’t required.

Kid next door graduated from hs two years ago. He’s doing an auto mechanic training program and then is going to go to college for an engineering degree. He wants to work his way through college, and didn’t want to do it as a minimum wage worker so figured he’d get a better job as a mechanic and pay his own way. And he likes cars.

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Students could be unprepared for college in different (not necessarily mutually exclusive) ways:

  • Academically unprepared.
  • Motivationally and emotionally unprepared (including lack of one’s own purpose for attending college, other than it being something that one does after high school, or attending because of family and friend pressure rather than one’s own desire).
  • Financially unprepared (usually due to parental circumstances and choices in the case of high school seniors).
  • Socially unprepared (including discouragement from family and friends who have a negative view of college generally).

Note that the first two of the above are about the student, while the last two are about those around the student. It is certainly possible that a student who is academically, motivationally, and emotionally ready to attend college is held back by parental discouragement and lack of financial support. It is also possible that a student who is not academically, motivationally, or emotionally ready to attend college is pushed into college by parents. In either case, non-completion is more likely.

Note that the unpreparedness states are not necessarily permanent. Some students who were motivationally or emotionally unprepared for college out of high school may be motivationally and emotionally ready for college later as non-traditional students, and they may then also be less subject to parental discouragement and old enough to be untethered from depending on parents for college financial aid. Someone who is academically unprepared out of high school has, in many areas, the possibility to remedy the academic unpreparedness in community college and then take a transfer pathway to a four year school.

Perhaps the OP wants to focus on academic unpreparedness. However, it is not obvious where the cut-off in high school academic credentials should be, since a given level of high school academic credentials corresponds to a probability of completion or non-completion, not a definite determination that the student will complete or not complete. Also, would the OP suggest that closing college to those deemed academically unprepared from high school include eliminating the current second chance that exists for students to remedy academic deficiencies in community college and then transfer to a four year school?

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Considering that most employment in rich countries is services*, many service jobs do pay enough to live on.

However, those that do typically require education, training, self-education, skills, etc. beyond what one is supposed to learn in high school.

*Physician, lawyer, engineer, teacher, accountant, electrician, plumber, elevator repairer, police officer, firefighter, air traffic controller, military service member, politician, CEO, etc. are service jobs.

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I’m not sure if anyone disagrees that public K-12 education in this country has failed to adequately prepare many students academically. Yet, we send most of them to college. How could they all be prepared for college academically, even if college education were fully funded for every student? It defies logic.

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“Most” includes the students going to community college. But most adults in the US don’t get/have a bachelor’s degree. They drop out for the many reasons cited above.

There are more ways an 18 year old must be ‘prepared’ for college than just academically.

It also seems people have different perceptions about what it means to be prepared academically for college, with good reason.

Being academically prepared to get an AA degree as a lab tech (to take but one of many possible examples) is quite different than being prepared to pursue a bachelor’s degree in a demanding subject. Lots of room between those two examples as well.

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If most students enrolled in 4 year schools are then dropping out of those colleges (as is the case), it is likely they were not prepared for the level they enrolled in. Enrolling and dropping out is a waste of the student’s time and usually tens of thousands of dollars in tuition, and often debt.