Interesting observation @woodwinds. What would you say for an applied art such as graphic design or illustration? Would developing one’s own style be the most direct route to finding employment? Certainly the portfolio needs to have a look that a prospective employer wants to see (or expresses a talent and vision in keeping with the standards of the employer) but aren’t these occupations really art and design from the perspective of the client and NOT the artist? One thing my D noticed in her pre college was that there were very talented students who couldn’t be taught anything - their vision worked for them, thank you very much. It made D1 wonder why they were there. She prefers to “evolve” into a competent and flexible communications designer who can address her client’s communications needs. Does that mean she won’t come up with a senior project on her own? Of course not - she’ll have plenty of creative ideas. But she prefers not to think that HER vision is what she needs to be focusing on. As for me, I think she needs to find her identity as a designer but not at the expense of frustration later as she struggles to find employment. Perhaps it’s a tightrope walk, not tipping too much one way or the other. Those are my thoughts.
Digmedia, your perspective is encouraging - this is exactly what my D1 is thinking. D2 wants to go into screenwriting so we will be down this path again once she comes back from Cherubs at Northwestern in August. I’m very much looking forward to a nice and simple desire to go into economics or engineering. We have a couple more kids in the pipeline and ONE of them is bound to follow a more typical path. LOL. You can guess which one of us - me or my spouse - is NOT the creative.
mamelot, I am definitely thinking of those going into solo/performance fields where one works for oneself, not for a company. If one’s goal is to work for someone else, then I agree with your comments.
My S is an illustration major but very much has his own vision though it’s constantly morphing.
As an attitude, he is much more the fine artist bound to create something. So, he does struggle at times as an illustration student and it has nothing to do with his talent or skill. His work has been critiqued for being out in left field compared to whatever the assignment is.
We ant him to finish in illustration because he will be a senior next year but would’ve advised him to go for painting or sculpture knowing what we know now.
His attitude, personality and creativivity are so one way that it’s hard for him to produce works within any preset limits. We saw this in middle and high schools but thought it was just an attitude he could shake, not an integral aspect of who and how he is.
Artists are different from the rest of us. They don’t try to be, they just are. They can’t conform to rules they didn’t have a say in developing. And most of us can’t even perceive their way of thinking because we can’t think like them. Having raised one, I appreciate artists and what they do but still don’t understand.
@Madaboutx I totally get what you are saying about artists. My daughter considers herself a “designer” rather than an “artist” but definitely has those characteristics as well! She can’t wait to get to art school where she feels she will be among “her people”.
One thing I learned while visiting my D’s school of choice is that they consider illustrators to be applied artists as well who do client-driven work. They are the only school that I know that talks about illustration like that. So the discipline is actually in the department of communications design, rather than in the school of fine art. To me, that makes a lot of sense, although I’m not sure how an illustration major would view that!
D likes graphic design but has chosen a broader “communications design” major which includes some illustration and advertising art instruction in addition to graphic and typography, etc. Her goal is to work for a design business or similar upon graduation. She’d like to launch her own design business someday but that’s a bit down the road after gaining valuable industry experience through full time work (in addition to internships, etc.). She feels she would never get off the ground if she started on her own.
@Woodwinds thanks for clarifying I feel a bit more relieved!
@Madaboutx I also wanted to add that a major in a field doesn’t necessarily mean the artist sticks to that field upon graduation. I have a niece and nephew who are artists (both trained at RISD) and neither stuck technically to their field after they got out. Rather, they used their training as a launching pad to end up eventually doing what they love in the art and design world.
And then, my D was just telling me that one possible outcome for an illustration major is the visual component of game/app design. The artistry is amazing on those! And it’s definitely a growth industry. She has a friend who wants to do illustration and is definitely keeping this opportunity in mind. Seems to me that might be an area in which someone with a definite “vision” might be valuable indeed.
Post 20–about pre-college students who couldn’t be taught anything… I agree with your D. If you didn’t want to learn why pay money to ignore advice? That’s free already.
Being teachable and willing to try new things/techniques (even if you oppose them at first) is a great attribute.
Don’t ever shut out people willing to give you the benefit of their wisdom and years of skill. You can ignore the advice AFTER you try it and decide that it doesn’t work for you.
A smart person knows that they don’t know everything and can always use something new in their tool box.
And about working for others vs independent work…
This is a true related story: I knew a woman who became a hair stylist and was GREAT at cutting hair. Right up to the time that she decided she knew exactly what cut/style was the best for you–and if you didn’t want your hair done that way then too bad…Let’s just say she didn’t transform her talent into a thriving business.
That’s good stuff to hear @Mamelot - I don’t know that my S knows what’s he’s going to do and tried to tell him to just finish and see where things lead him and to be flexible with it.
And working for others vs independent. @gouf78 some people are just like that. The artist types I’m referring to aren’t rebellious or angry or stupid or anything. They just find it extremely hard not to follow their passion even if it goes against their own economic self interest. They live by the beat of a different drummer and don’t fall in line and conform that easily. We judge those folks for not making the choices 98% of us feel we would make under the same circumstances. It’s a part of the spectrum of human values though. They would rather govern themselves completely than to give in to being governed by others rules, thoughts, attitudes or beliefs. Again, I don’t fully understand it but I know it when I see it.
Unless an artist has a singular talent AND the personality and head for self promotion then the ability “to play well with others” is a necessity to be a working artist.
Actually, even those artists who do well working for themselves through commissions, portraits, etc., need to play well with others. Pretty much everyone who studied at the ateliers with my daughter was headed towards a career as an independent artist. The most successful in that group do actually work very well with other artists and their clients. They market themselves well through social media.
Social skills may be hard for some artists. We have three kids who are mildly on the spectrum and just think differently - both in how they visualize and perceive the world AND in how they interact with others. Even those who don’t suffer from hubris may struggle LOL. Some of these skills need to be taught overtly and I’m wondering what art colleges have in terms of social skills training. Do their career services counselors understand that artists and designers may be quirky and need specific training in these areas? Or is this something for the Office of Disability Services?
I think there is a difference between playing well with others and being able to collaborate versus being an employee and doing what one is told.
My S collaborates with models, musicians and other artists to produce bigger, more grand designs. He could not work in an environment that stifles creativity very well. There is a difference. Maybe a nuanced difference but enough of a difference.
Madaboutx put it well. In my opinion, there is a great difference I believe “between playing well with others and being able to collaborate versus being an employee and doing what one is told”.
My daughter works well with the models she hires or works with, her clients–some of whom are rather famous people–other artists at conventions, her photographer, students/K-12 and college art instructors who take workshops from her, etc. Her formidable writing skills (800 SAT score, which was never used as she didn’t attend college) unquestionably are part of her success in attracting over 5,000 followers now on her blog, giving and writing interviews for artist magazines, and communicating with wealthy and sometimes particular clients.
She was shy as a child and did not go through a “teenage” phase–a concept that really only exists in the United States. She had few friends her own age, but got along well with adults, people my age. Her atelier studies in Florence, Italy were very intensive. 12 hours per day of drawing and painting–nothing else. One must be very determined to get through that. As it was not a college, there were no counselors, office of disability services or anything or the sort. When she finished studies at age 21, she came home and started studying Dale Carnegie books. She taught herself business, and how to speak with others, since she knew these were her weaknesses. She gradually developed her own style of painting and drawing, and added sculpture (which she studied for years as a child). The ateliers do not “teach” creativity; only skills.
@woodwinds sounds like your daughter had exactly the kind of education she needed. You are to be commended for understanding her needs and helping her achieve her goals in the way that works for her. While she was headed for a professional life in which she got to call her own shots, I’m sure she also got along well with her ateliers instructors. Perhaps sometimes doing what she was told in order to gain skills and make progress. My guess is that her recognition of their skill level as well as her determination to get through the program allowed her to take the direction and the correction.
No one in training has perfect autonomy and my D considers some creative work that has an “entry level” another step in her training to become a full-fledged design professional. Her goal is not to be a free-lance designer but to be running a design business. That takes a LOT of education in skills other than artistic training. She may change her mind about her career path as she progresses through school, of course, but currently the way she is looking at it makes sense - at least to me. I see her as someone who just might end up with an MBA and doing brand management - or being a creative director at an ad agency. Her skill set is actually pretty broad.
On the other hand, she struggles with organization, time management, etc. (always has) so that even finding time to do her own projects - like designing her grad. announcements - becomes a challenge and a “last minute” issue. This is where support services like Disability Services etc. can be useful because she is going to get creamed her foundation year if she struggles to get her art done now. I see these other students obsessed with their work and insisting on exquisite detailed art and I wonder if D has even chosen the right career path (!) but I think it’s a matter of continuing to get the needed support so that she makes the time to focus on what she loves (she is also “distracted” by her AP coursework which is pretty intense). She has her own sense of timing but her issues result in misjudgments that actually prevent her from finishing projects on time. She needed a LOT of study-skill training to even get to the level of performance commensurate with her intelligence level. So not surprisingly, D likes the idea of a hard deadline (and the prospect of getting fired!) to keep her on-track. Call it external motivation, LOL.
BTW, she also works extremely well with grownups but not with kids her own age and here in MN (not the most diverse community around) she can be like a square peg. Fortunately she found a group of other kids at her school who are just as, if not more, quirky than she is (some with real neurological or mental health issues and to them she’s so put-together and achievement oriented that she serves as mentor and advisor to the group!).
From age17 on, my daughter called her own shots. I dropped her off in Italy, and she was on her own. After one year there, she was able to support herself with sales. I cannot take credit for that; she did this all on her own.
At the atelier, she did exactly what she was told in the drawing classes. She has written about how some others do not, and they don’t fare as well. After a few years she was the instructor in those drawing classes. Teaching helped her as an artist.
Absolutely, an artist/designer/musician/etc. with plans to run their own business must have many more skills than just their art. You just don’t need to get them all in college or school.