<p>I wasn’t friends with ostentatious people – the way I found out that I was friends with rich people was that they and their families were very generous. One friend’s parents just handed me their Bridgehampton summer home for a long weekend. Another friend used to show up at my apartment during law school with a week’s worth of Indian takeout for me and my roommate to enjoy, just to give us a boost during finals. I knew a few entitled jerks, but so many were so nice, it was ridiculous.</p>
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Does that seem like an either/or proposition to you, or did she inspire you to be snarky as well?</p>
<p>@sylvan Say what?? Don’t understand where this rudeness is coming from…</p>
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I really got to give it to her, Nrds! She’s gone above and beyond raising her children all by herself. </p>
<p>(Oh, goodness. I feel like Tom Cruise…like I’m about to jump on the couch and profess my love for my mom!)</p>
<p>I think there is a vast difference between having a conversation about class and complaining that schools that are already being very generous aren’t evening the playing field enough. The articles posted so far seem to me to be more in the former vein than the latter, but I think some of them make the mistake of conflating a relatively minor problem with a more major one.</p>
<p>Colleges can’t possibly - and shouldn’t be expected to try to - completely erase class distinctions. If you are a lower-income student going to a wealthy school, the reality is you aren’t going to be able to afford all of the extras your classmates will. That was true in my case, and I was from a middle class family (I was on FA that reduced the cost to roughly a state school sticker price). It is much truer in the case of someone from a really underprivileged background. That’s life. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t OK for students in that position to write about their experiences, or ask classmates to stop assuming that everyone even has spending money, let alone a trust fund, but I don’t think it is worth a lot of hand-wringing.</p>
<p>The most substantial difference is that your family’s social background really will limit or at least strongly influence your professional choices. I’m not even talking about things like the ability to take a summer internship or get a nice outfit for an interview (the latter of which, frankly, I think a bright, ambitious college senior should be able to manage even under financial constraint), but about longer term choices, and that is well worth speaking about. Once I graduate from my program, for instance, I’m not in a financial position to spend more than about a year doing the underemployed adjunct thing. Were I sitting on a large inheritance, or were my parents wealthy enough (and generous enough, which they are) to subsidize me for longer, I could do that for several years, which could be the difference between having an academic career and not. On the other hand, were I from a lower-income family, I might well have decided that the risk wasn’t worth it at all, since the fact that my parents certainly could loan me 10K if I had a lean year - not to mention provide food and a roof over my head in emergency circumstances - is a huge safety net that many people don’t have. And I’m in a program with a pretty nice stipend, not a program that forces me to go into debt even BEFORE I face a very shaky job market. </p>
<p>Even those issues, however, aren’t anyone’s fault, per se, they are a reality of economic disparity. We could, on another forum, argue about the precise politics of that disparity, but the fact is that there will always be people who have to think about money and people who don’t. Again, that’s life. So, the question becomes, are articles talking about the way these disparities affect lower-income students at elite schools doing so to call attention to the struggles these students face - which is valid - or to suggest that some sort of large scale change (as opposed to modest things like making sure that career services is equipped to advise kids from poor families) needs to be implemented, which is a very different matter?</p>
<p>I also want to join the chorus of people suggesting that some posters seem to have a really warped view of how financial aid works for people of various income levels, but perhaps that is the topic for a different post.</p>
<p>WOW, just wow. So the consensus here is if you overcome abject poverty and manage to earn admission into an elite school, the only feeling you are allowed to express out loud is extreme gratitude and deep reverence to your sponsors haha. Shameful.</p>
<p>My DD’s school is very aware of the fact that lower SES kids have a high drop out rate for many of the reasons discussed here, so they have instituted many programs beginning in the summer to help them adjust to college life. I don’t think this is more “free” stuff for “poor” kids or throwing money at the problem, it’s simply a lot of group discussion, strategy sessions and bonding time to give them each other to hold onto during the transition. It’s been very successful and I am so glad that her school doesn’t have the, ‘just be grateful for your FA and shut it’ attitude expressed by some here.</p>
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<p>The male college students coming in for interviews for paid internships and first jobs after graduation typically look like they are trying to dress up, but not really doing that good a job of it (e.g. suit and dress shirt that does not fit all that well). In part, this may be because men’s dress clothes are typically made for older (fatter) men, not men built like college students. But also most male college students do not dress up much, or know how to make dress clothes look good.</p>
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<p>This could also apply to other lines of work where a string of unpaid internships tends to substitute for paid entry-level jobs. The film industry is one that has this reputation.</p>
<p>Choices in other lines of work can also be affected. A student from a wealthy family who goes to medical school may have received some contribution from parents to graduate with lower debt than someone from a non-wealthy family. The latter medical school graduate may face more debt pressure to choose a higher paying specialty, even if what s/he really wants to do is a lower paying specialty.</p>
<p>There will be disparities in every phase of life due to the availability or unavailabilty of money. As someone up thread wrote, why is this news? You cannot assume that every full-pay student has it easier than you. Some parents won’t pay for anything beyond the basics (e.g., Bunheadmom), some parents are completely tapped out and can’t help. There are plenty of FA ineligible students who have taken out loans, and they don’t get the benefit of subsidized rates. </p>
<p>One thing that all students at these colleges get, regardless of parental income, is the opportunity to recieve the best educational experience in the world, and not just in the classroom. That’s a pretty huge thing.</p>
<p>And I am sure that they ARE grateful and they DO realize the “hugeness” of their opportunity but why can’t they also be allowed to have more than one feeling, like inadequacy or self-doubt? Many of these kids overcome a level of adversity that hopefully many of you will never fully comprehend. It’s not just a matter of not being able to afford a pedicure, it’s the underlying principle of having the disposable income to be able to fritter away $40 just like that may be difficult to even grasp. </p>
<p>My co-worker went full ride to USC and she said she never realized until she arrived there that at home, she had essentially lived in a pantry as her bedroom. Yes, disparity exists outside the college bubble, but for many, college will be their firsthand experience of this disparity and it can be overwhelming. That is not to say, that they should just sit in their room and cower and whine but I haven’t heard anyone that was a full FA kid say that’s how they spent their college years either.</p>
<p>I don’t care if you agree, but statements such as you “can’t feel sorry for them,” or “they should be grateful,” have an undercurrent that’s teeming with resentment and disdain. Transparently bitter if you ask me.</p>
<p>Salve,
Are you saying that these kids want us to feel sorry for them? That was not my impression and others here have said they are not looking for pity. </p>
<p>I didn’t say anything in this thread about expressing gratitude, but in real life I actually do expect my own kids to be grateful that they were able to attend these magnificent universities, due in large part to our willingness to pay nearly half a million dollars for the two of them. They had their ups and downs at these places, just like every college student everywhere, but probably somewhat less so because of all the amazing resources available to them at these schools. Even in their down moments I did not feel sorry for them or pity them, as periods of discomfort are part of life and were a small price to pay for the opportunity they were receiving in return.</p>
<p>My daughter found at her school it isn’t discussed much but it does cause some discomfort at times. Students who work and really struggle for “extras” are asked at times to pay a large percentage of a group present, the others are well-off and they can’t put in 20 or more or they think they are being unsociable about not going out again one night, 10.00 a few times a week adds up. Most students are understanding but some seem to always “forget” you can’t do something or never traveled, etc. It wasn’t their bubble. Professors too can assume after dealing with the majority, that everyone has done something, traveled to Europe,etc, my daughter had that happen also, and she felt awkward at first, but then realized it was nothing to be ashamed of. She was once told by a female student in a catty way, her J crew skirt she had recently purchased was from “2 years ago” I know that was on clearance, I worked at the store in high school" Was that fact diminishing the skirt? How sad to be that way…nothing to envy.
My daughter has much less than most of her peers, but she is friends with others who are worse off than she is. That is life, a lot is attitude and educating others that we aren’t all the same. You will find “entitled jerks” as one poster so aptly put it everywhere but it’s how you respond to it that matters.</p>
<p>That catty girl actually had to <em>work??</em> And in retail, where she had to wait on other people! Man, I feel sorry for her. ;)</p>
<p>I liked the article but one point that maybe the author is unaware of is that in the presence of people who are vastly more wealthy than you are, everyone feels a bit overwhelmed, even people who are “only” upper middle class.</p>
<p>When I arrived at an Ivy League school in the 1980’s, I really struggled academically for the first year or so. I was from a small town and had attended a small Catholic high school and had never taken an AP class, had never had access to classes in languages like Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, etc. There were girls from expensive prep schools who were essentially retaking all their classes in their freshman year. They had already taken AP English or whatever at their high school, so now it was basically a repeat for them in their freshmen year, and their parents had encouraged them to do this so that they would have high GPA’s for medical school. I remember being flabbergasted by this.</p>
<p>I remember once listening to the rich girls talk about traveling in Europe and having no idea that Bruges was a town in Belgium. I assumed it was a restaurant, perhaps in Paris? I certainly didn’t know anyone who had ever lived there. </p>
<p>THere were people whose parents owned large recreational boats, etc. It was as foreign to me as it was to the poor kids. I also remember in my first government job in Washington joking with my friends about all of the summer interns who were better dressed than we were – girls wearing 400 dollars worth of clothes to work at a job that didn’t come with a salary; girls who were wearing jewelry that hadn’t been purchased from one of the vendors on the street in Dupont Circle, unlike the rest of us (LOL).</p>
<p>I’m a professor and a while ago I was a Visiting Professor at an elite school and I remember being amazed at the stuff that sat in our building’s lost and found box for a semester – North Face jackets, stuff from L.L. Bean. It seems like there ought to be a procedure for donating the unclaimed stuff to student aid at some point.</p>
<p>When I read the Forbes’ article, however, I found myself thinking that I’m not always sensitive to the fact that students can’t afford the books. I also realized that I often have two or more copies of a textbook sitting on my shelf – Perhaps in the future, I will mention to students that I have a small lending library if finances are an issue.</p>
<p>Can you think of any more concrete suggestions for actual steps universities might take to address some of these issues?</p>
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<p>They may have family problems or health issues or other challenges, but they have not had to go to school hungry or live in a trailer or housing project or shotgun shack. Of course, poor people are just as (or more?) likely to have those other challenges too.</p>
<p>Actually, I don’t think anyone really knows what goes on in anyone else’s home. It’s entirely possible for someone to grow up in a middle class home where there is something like alcoholism or drug abuse which may affect whether or not dinner gets cooked. It’s also possible for someone to be from a poor family where there were two stable parents who helped with homework and cooked a healthy dinner every night. It’s kind of like the way that you never really know what anyone else’s marriage is like. I think you’re giving money too much power if you really think it is the solution to all of life’s problems.</p>
<p>I would never say money is the solution to all of life’s problems. However, poverty IS one of life’s greatest problems, along with all the ills that go with it. </p>
<p>I also don’t know of a lot of truly poor people whose families can afford to cook a healthy dinner every night. I don’t think that is the case for most–certainly not the urban poor.</p>
<p>Just read this entire thread.</p>
<p>Perhaps the one thing everyone here can agree on is that it is extremely difficult (and for some, impossible) to walk in another person’s shoes.</p>
<p>I’m not smart enough to quote, but I went to the Harvard NPC linked in post #81 and played around with it. To get to that parent contribution of $40,000, I had to put in no assets - no savings, investments, etc. I plugged and chugged and it looked like one got to the full-freight price (when one assumed $200,000 of wages) at Harvard somewhere around $360,000 to $370,000 in assets (not one’s home). Of course, if you had that, there would also presumably be some dividends/interest, etc. unless one’s savings were buried in the back yard! </p>
<p>That’s the thing that gets me - ucbalumnus mentions how it might be easier to save for college if one earning $200,000 lived with the spending habits of those in the $50,000 - $70,000 range. There seems to be a disincentive to save at all because the more you save, the more you pay! Perhaps I am being too simplistic and interpreting this correctly, but it seems like one is better off spending all one’s earnings! If you earn $200,000 in wages per year and save nothing, you come out $20,000 “ahead.” At least that’s how it looks to me.</p>
<p>We are not über wealthy…but we certainly live comfortably. That being said…my DD in particular, met many friends who were far wealthier than we were at her private university. She (and we) are not in the business of “counting other people’s money”…or even caring how much money they have to count. I have to say…I think the vast majority of people are in the same camp. </p>
<p>Hanna, I also met friends in college that were far more solvent than I was. They had their own cars, vacation homes, etc. They were very modest in terms of how they interacted with friends, never flaunting money…never. No one ever commented on my discount or hand me down clothes, or lack of funds to do expensive things. Simply put, we did NOT discuss each other’s wealth…or that of our families.</p>
<p>The OP to this thread, and some posters, make it sound like you will be a pariah if you are not wealthy and those around you are. I’m sorry but, first, I do NOT agree with this. And second…I don’t think that is how life is at these elite campuses.</p>
<p>I think the crux of the discussion is not about the middle class and what can or cannot happen with kids and admissions at very wealthy colleges, but more about what happens to those students who are poor to the extent that most of us, parents, will fortunately never find ourselves in or if it was our childhood have moved beyond. Clearly the richest colleges have the where-with-all to “buy” the students they want through cost discounting and if you have kids with the smarts to get accepted you reap those benefits. That is an entirely different situation than the intent of the original article. </p>
<p>My kids drove back and forth to high school in a 1993 sedan while their friends drove Lexus, Volvo, Mercedes and new SUVs. We drive to our vacations and some of them fly in their parents planes or simply fly a family of 4-6…That is “not” a problem for us or for our kids or anyone else…that is a lifestyle choice that the very poor cannot even fathom. If your kids got into a very wealthy college and you are paying less than your EFC, pour yourself a drink and pat yourself on the back…you did a “good job.” If you can’t afford your EFC, pour yourself a drink and slap yourself…but this is not what the original post or the link is about.</p>
<p>You know, some of this is just the way you were raised, if you have money. Both of my daughters work(ed) while in college and neither “had to,” at all. Both are very cognizant of what someone else can and can not afford. </p>
<p>But, then, I put myself through college and over the years we have had a lot of conversations about “to whom much is given…etc…” </p>
<p>The tricky part, for oldest D, was how to make an invitation and not insult someone. Her best friend in school had significantly less means, but she was my daughter’s first choice of who she wanted to go with her on any of her trips. I mean, the trip was much better if this kid was along. How to make that invitation and make it clear that it wasn’t a ‘gift’ or favor since it was a huge preference that she be there?</p>
<p>they worked it out because friend lived nearby and D sometimes went to family dinners and asked for favors. The mom would bring by cakes sometimes, that kind of thing. </p>
<p>I can say that daughter’s experience in college would have been significantly diminished if this young woman hadn’t been around. They did things like, daughter took the biggest bedroom in the apt and paid a lot more rent. That kind of thing.</p>