Asian Americans

Applying to College
121

<p>This is stupid... so what if Asians are numbering high in academia... just goes to show where people hold values. I do believe that AA should be made illegal and if people wish to get to top positions... they should get there by merit and not race. So what if Asian Americans are very similar... they aren't homogeneous... they are just people who prefer similar thing and they shouldn't be shunned from top school because of that.</p>

122

<p>I think things are getting a little heated up, and not necessarily in a good way. </p>

<p>Could we keep this to an academic back-and-forth, not personal attacks? </p>

<p>California: it's not possible to keep this issue purely Asian. Your denouncement of TheDad as being arrogant for offering his views was a cheap shot. Although it does seem unfair that the test scores that Asian kids are pressured to focus on are becoming less important, perhaps it's time to diversify. Perhaps it IS time to diversify from the 1600-violin/piano-physics/math formula...</p>

<p>Of course, it is a bitter pill to swallow, and TheDad, even though Asians are "overrepresented" in college admissions, they are grossly underrepresented in upper-tier business positions and government positions. For many Asians, education is the magic key to a better life, and it is painful to spend your childhood studying (prompted by the tales of your parents) and then watch your efforts get shunted aside because they are not "unique" enough. Uniqueness is all fine and good, but determination and skill are what count. </p>

<p>Well, that's my two cents...or three bucks.</p>

123

<p>I'm largely stating what is and why and coming down on me about it is a bit like relieving yourself into the wind.</p>

<p>Espiesior: get one thing very clear: unlike college systems in some other countries, American colleges are not purely about stats-driven merit. If that's what you insist upon, I invite you to check out the systems of Japan, China, and India, all of which contain some very high-powered universities. Again: your perception of merit is not what the American system is about. You need to take a deep breath and deal with it or else you're going to be a very unhappy person for a considerable period of time.</p>

<p>Tebro: I agree about the Asian under-representation in high-level business or government positions. Got a deal for you: I don't think you can extract the data because I don't think anybody releases it, but look at the relative rates of applications of Asians to academic programs that ultimately lead to high-level business or government positions. I know Asian students who get flack from their parents just for wanting to be a lawyer instead of a doctor. As for wanting to study the arts or humanities, forget it...it's not recognized as "real" or "prestigious" enough by the parents, as are options of attending high-end LAC's instead of research universities. (So you have Asians competing in a narrower pool of the college choices to begin with.) You show me Asian applicants who are outside the "typical" profile and I bet they do exceedingly well. But in your suggested profile..."piano." Damn. You're right. I forgot the piano. It's certainly part of it.</p>

<p>Btw, on the Old Board, there was a sometimes funny, sometimes sad very long thread called "You Know You're Asian When" that had posts about what you did, and what parental reactions and pressures are. If you can get to the Old Board, do a search and I think you can find it.</p>

<p>I know a fair amount about Asian students and families and live in a very cosmopolitan area. (Have to be able to konichi wa, ni hao ma, or ao say oh as appropriate sometimes, just to be polite.) As my D put it during the application process, "Dad, you're pretty hard for a parent but if we were Jewish you'd be normal and if we were Asian you'd be easy."</p>

<p>California1600, you're completely off base. Get this real clear: affirmative action is about under-representation, not discrimination. I can't help it if the blind leading the blind on Internet message boards or high school bulletin boards don't know what they're talking about and muddy the waters. Asians are by no means under-represented in the college pool, particularly at the the reserach universities.</p>

124

<p>TheDad, you make many good points--and I've seen your D's comment about the relative hardness of parents. It was equally humorous and sadly true--and the pathos made me laugh out loud. </p>

<p>The "You Know You're Asian When..." are absolutely hilarious--I've read a large number of them and shaken my (old and wise) head at the sad, sad truths. </p>

<p>I'm empathizing more with the individual student than Asians in general, to be honest. I think its a good idea to force the older generation to rethink their college ideals, but I can't help but feel sorry for the kids. These are kids who were made to give up much of a social life to prep them for college and then are told they're not unique enough despite the work and sacrifices. It's really quite tragic. </p>

<p>How could you forget the piano?! <em>shock</em> it's an intrinsic part of the Asian experience. (And another thing I have a beef with. A friend of mine recently switched from violin to viola under pressure from her parents because she couldn't compete with the other million Asian violinists even though she has NO feeling whatsoever for music. I've loved music for its sake--I sing in the crowded halls at school!--and this kind of manipulation and pressure honestly anger me. I thank God I have wonderful parents who chauffeur me around to my various activities and never force me to do anything except go to bed/eat/take VitaminC.) </p>

<p>However, I wonder if separating based on race ever doesn't-have (sorry, convoluted grammar) discrimination as a side-effect. I'd love to hear your thoughts on policy and its drawbacks.</p>

125

<p>TheDad, there are many Asians who outside the piano/math/physics profile. For example, <em>I'm</em> Asian (first-generation Asian American, in fact) and I'm definitely not a piano/physics profile. I don't play any instruments, and I'm not interested in the sciences. I'm good at math, but I'm rather indifferent to the subject. </p>

<p>However, the majority of my non-community service ECs lie in political influence in cultural society, journalism, and writing. My <em>biggest</em> passion is media and film-making (every aspect of it) and ancient languages (primarily Latin). I have a very firm film-making and Latin background.</p>

<p>According to your generalization (I'm not harping on you or anything), I would be outside the general Asian category.</p>

<p>However, I have been told many many many times, despite my extra-curriculars and interests, that I will be turned down and expected more of simply because of my race. This being said, I do have the grades (and possibly scores) to compete in for top-tier education. </p>

<p>A lot of the Asians around here are different. None of them are particularly in love with anything to do with media as I am, but they all are unique (the exception being the 10-20 math/piano/physics kids out of 100-200 Asians) in their backgrounds/interests.</p>

126

<p>My school's AP program is dominated by asians, in fact I am a small minority in all of my classes except for 1 class(Im white). I do not think it is a bad thing at all, asian kids are intelligent and they work hard for what they want(white kids do not). Especially the Chinese at my school. While all asian groups work harder than white or black kids, the Chinese kids really stand out and usually are the ones who put our school on the map. I support what Asian Americans are doing, in fact I think it is something that more people should try to model.</p>

127

<p>Effulgent, I work with a lot of Asian families regarding college admissions and tutoring, and have done so for a long time. Three different cities over 15 years. I hate calling the math/science/music/quiet/diligent type Asian as there are as many non Asian kids who fall into that category as well. I would say the next largest group would be Jewish kids, and after that Russian/Eastern European if we are placing kids in ethnic groups. But there are a number of kids who fall into this category that are of every ethnicity, and they fare exactly the same as the Asian kids. I do not see any difference in the acceptance/rejection rates of high scoring kids that fall into that category without major hooks among various ethnic groups other than URMs which have that designation as a major hook. But nearly every Asian that I meet when they discuss the selective college process will say that exactly as you, Effulgent, say,or have been told; that Asians tend to get turned down more and more is expected of Asian kids. I have looked hard for evidence of this, spoken to many people in the admissions offices of selective colleges--not the ones who have a stake in how they are run but the clerks and work study kids, and readers; and if there is a concerted effort to keep out Asians, no one seems to know about it. If anything adcoms and colleges love Asian students. And I can tell you that the resumes are phenomonal to me--until I look at the 20th one, and realize that it would not be the type of community I would want to put together. I love classical music and have supported it for years. My children have all been well trained in it. I enjoy listening to concerts, yes, even the student piano recitals and have spent many hours listening to old tapes from days of yore reminiscing as I listen to some amazing kids playing some wonder pieces. And many of those kids are Asian. I cannot think of a better resume than these kids have, but do I want an entire class of them if I am putting together a college community. Nope. Need the classics majors, social science majors, want some artsy types, political types. Never mind the nationality or ethnic types as I put together a dynamic group of people. And to do so, that huge stack of math/science/music types are not going to all get accepted. And this is without any regard to being Asian, Jewish, anything. Then there are the tagged categories that often have their own admissions officer tracking. Yes, there is generally someone overseeing the URM admissions, the athletic liason is dealing with the athletes--Harvard does have hockey, football , basketball, the whole thing and at Division 1 level those kids have to be skilled athletes who have spent years on the sport. Then developement has its say and the alumni as well. And then there are those unique individuals that the elite colleges want, generally a handful, and the current list of wants and needs that change all of the time. When you get a large group of people that tend to fall in one of those stacks, they are not going to get in on all of the groups that the college wants in their community. </p>

<p>I agree with you that a lot of the Asians are different. Some years, as I do this year, I get a few who do not fall into the mold, and they too will be treated as any kids of their profile. Occaisionally there is a big flurry when a 1440 SAT Asian kid with a decent but not top class rank gets into a big name school over his peers because he had something desireable and different. And often times the families are very resentful and unable to get out of their heads that it did not matter that his academic stats were not as high as their kids' or that he was not as musically accomplished, and did not win as many competitions. He had something else that the school wanted, and the school did not categorize him as Asian and compare him to other Asians. I don't know of any school that does that. Unless you are URM, you are looked at without regard to ethnicity (internationals excepted). In fact, these days it is not so easy to figure out who is Asian and who is not, and I cannot see adcoms sitting there trying to figure it out. Many non URMs choose not to check the little box identifying their race and ethnic backgrounds. The colleges use that designation for their ethnic breakdowns, by the way; they do not guess by name or anecdotes. </p>

<p>Now, what would happen if the Asian population should diversify and dominate every activity across the board? Would colleges accept an predominently Asian school with the only exceptions being URMS and other tag catergories? I don't know. It may come to that question. I do know that many orchestras and music programs have become predominently Asian as have certain career fields such as medicine, engineering. In some of the elite colleges where women are now more than half the population, Asians so overrepresented, and URM numbers, the caucasian male is becoming underrepresented after years of dominating the scene. </p>

<p>I don't have a good handle on the situation other than with the North East selective schools as that is where I have focused my attention. But I have been scrutinizing the app processes there for unfairness towards Asians and see no deliberate campaign to keep the number down. Yes, the URM category does hurt Asian numbers; it hurts the numbers for anyone who is not URM. And having schools that have limited seats in the sciences, maths and wanting to keep a classic department, psychology department, humanities department at a certain levelsB hurts the chances of Asian and other math/science types. But I really don't think those policies are in place to keep down the number of Asians.</p>

128

<p>what i dont get is all this overrepresented underrepresented BS. it's un-American anti-meritocratic in the purest sense, and as soon as the conservative SC justices get in there, i will bet you my life that AA is gone. next case will happen within 5yrs and it will go down 9-0. watch it.
bye bye</p>

129

<p>
[quote]
Asians are by no means under-represented in the college pool, particularly at the the reserach universities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So what? This isn't a matter of representation, but of unfair admission policies. Why must Asians be held to a HIGHER standard than white students?</p>

<p>I think that's the biggest issue with most Asians. It's not that bad if blacks and hispanics get more lenient standards since most have considerable disadvantages. Most people can relate and understand this. However, what doesn't make sense is why a white student (who has the same, if not more educational opportunities of an Asian) should be given an advantage over an Asian applicant.</p>

<p>Yes, Asians are well represented in college. But if that's the case, shouldn't they be held to the SAME standards as white people, not HIGHER ones?</p>

130

<p>Within this forum alone, I think we could hold a legitimate convention of violin quartets.</p>

131

<p>i was aware that the judges supporting affirmative action only saw it as temporary and were going to take it away in 10-15 years anyways.</p>

132

<p>Tebro, for forgetting piano, I plead that I've been sick for three days, moving only between the bed, the sofa, the bathroom, and the computer and my mind is a bit fuzzy right now. I have something of a perfectionist streak myself, though not to absurd lengths...I was perfectly happy with my D's 3.9/1580, more grumbling than desirable, really, about the previous 1480. Well, and with a little luck/effort, that 3.90 could have been a 3.94 or 3.96...know what I mean? The five B's could have been trimmed to two or three. Do I begin to sound at least half-Asian? But Tebro I agree with you that it would be a lot easier on today's Asian students if their parents would lighten up and look at other possiblilities beyond science/math/medicine for their children. </p>

<p>Effulgent, I would actually say that you have a better chance than most at some of your choices because your profile, regardless of ethnicity, isn't that common.</p>

<p>Jamimom...most excellent post. You can tell where I'm cribbing from your posts on the Old Board, synthesizing with my own. Why re-invent when the master has already done it?</p>

<p>Ryan, during my D's junior year, she came home and observed that her pre-Calc/CalcA class was "The Jews, the Asians, and me and Name." Same pattern as the later observation about parenting approach...what a coincidence.</p>

133

<p>Zsurf, LOL!!! No bet. Why, I myself started taking violin lessons about four months ago when D was getting ready to head off to college. Suzuki Method and everything, humbling myself to be instructed by a 16-year-old high school girl.</p>

<p>StressedOut, you're looking from the wrong side of the mirror, it's not about Asians being Over-Represented. Re-read Jamimom's post again. It's about balancing classes for all different sorts of criteria. And re-read my post again: the American college system is not a purely stats-based meritocracy. Deal with it. Or else continue your schooling in Japan, China, or India.</p>

134

<p>Thedad, I have truly looked for direct discrimination against Asian students, and just have not found it. I worked as a lowly clerk in a highly selective college admissions office with a high Asian population, and heard many unfortunate remarks made but keeping out Asians was not one of them. Adcoms HATE any interference in their process--they despise the athletic admits and anytime development or some influential person, even within the school tried to bring in someone, it was met with resentment. I cringe when I hear kids or parents saying that they know someone on the board of trustees or a rich donor that is going to write a letter or call on behalf of the kid. You're better off having your highschool janitor or bus driver write a note on how kind and wonderful your kid is. That just might pull some weight. What usually happens is that very early in the admissions process those kids with the high stats, math/science bent, terrific music resume, are accepted at a rapid clip. Then after the nth app that falls into that category, those types are scrutinized for "something else in addition", and it does not matter a whit what the nationality or ethnic type of the applicant unless it is the URM category (which I can tell you very rarely is it--in that sense Asians are not as affected by URMS as they are almost never in the same profile of types. There simply are not many classical music playing highmath science URMs, and the types of majors that math/science types tend to want--premed, engineering, computer science will flush out anyone who cannot take that rigid curriculum, particularly at the top schools, but really anywhere. If anyone should be complaining about URM preference, it should be those in the "softer" majors in the social science, humanities, political sciences because statistically, that is where most URMS end up.</p>

135

<p>O_o zsurf you genius! I've been playing violin for ten years and love every aspect except that my hands are wayyyy too small--cyber-chamber is awesome! </p>

<p>TheDad--I empathize. Am sick myself with the flu--cold shakes and nasty temper to boot. Hope you feel better!</p>

136

<p>"Asians being Over-Represented"</p>

<p>Yes, thank you for repeating what I said in my VERY FIRST sentence. Perhaps YOU should re-read MY post.</p>

<p>"It's about balancing classes for all different sorts of criteria. And re-read my post again: the American college system is not a purely stats-based meritocracy"</p>

<p>On a whole, most ECs are generally the same, regardless of ethnicity. Asians do pretty much the same things most white people do and yet their still denied admission.</p>

<p>And besides, the students whose stats aren't high enough and depend on ECs + personality to get in represent a small portion of the admit pool. How many actors, playwrights, hackers, and oddballs does a school really need? Only a few to add to flavor to campus, but that's it. The majority of students will be accepted based on their academics.</p>

<p>"Deal with it. Or else continue your schooling in Japan, China, or India."</p>

<p>Cool. Awesome way to support an argument.</p>

<p>I'm sure black's were equally impressed by that rationale too. "You're a slave. You're my property. Deal with it."</p>

<p>Awesome.</p>

<p>I'm just speechless.</p>

137

<p>"I disagree with your comment on how Japanese and Chinese immigrants are highly selective. If they were, would there be as many restaurants or "Chinese laundries?" They saw a niche, they crammed into it. Being in a constant state of turmoil for one hundred years has made the Chinese very resilient and frighteningly adaptative underneath oppression. The question is, as a race--can you adapt, can you hold on? In any case, wouldn't the immigrants "forced" here have a higher desire to succeed and survive?" - Tebro</p>

<p>Tebro, for every Chinese restaurant and laundry, there is another 20 who lives in the hills who are engineers and/or professionals. These are the exception to the rule. A lot of the daughters and sons of these people will not get out of their area. Example: Go and look at Chinatown of Oakland and Chinatown of San Francisco. The school districts are HORRID even though they are something like 50-60% Asian. Now, we go to somewhere like... San Ramon Valley H.S. or Miramonte and you find that is something like 20-30% Asian. However, there are MANY MANY more of these high schools in the United States than the ones compared with the Chinatown high schools. Names like Lowell, Gunn, Paly, Miramonte, Campolindo, Mission Valley are just some examples of schools where the majority of asian kids have professional parents. The reason why you dont see so many Asian professionals everywhere is because they do not tend to clump together like the poorer blue-collar Asians.</p>

138

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<p>Umm...wrong. Asians tend to have a very narrow focus in types of major and in EC's. Why don't you ask Jamimom again, who has counseled hundreds of Asian students? Or go into the Parents Forum where one particular Asian parent often complains about his son wanting to study politics instead of engineering?</p>

<br>


<br>

<p>Wrong again. You are arguing from flawed premises. Admissions officers say that they are looking to balance dozens of factors in a class. And you're so very very wrong--not to mention condescending--about colleges needing only a handful of playwrights and other "oddballs." That's not the way they look at it...and that's not the way they look at it in more than one way. The English majors, Art majors, History majors, etc. ad infinitum are as central a part of the campus environment as the Physics and Computer Science majors.</p>

<p>The world is not going to make sense to you until you get to a worldview that more closely resembles reality.</p>

139

<p>
[quote]
Umm...wrong. Asians tend to have a very narrow focus in types of major and in EC's. Why don't you ask Jamimom again, who has counseled hundreds of Asian students?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's the common STEREOTYPE of asians. In reality, their as diverse as other people. And by God, how different can ECs be? You have volunteer work, music, research, jobs, sports, boy scouts, student council, blah blah blah. All of it is roughly the same and there is equal represenation in each activity from ALL ethnicities. What specific EC do white people have in a much higher proportion than Asians? And is that particular EC so powerful that ad com officers are willing to reject more qualified people?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Admissions officers say that they are looking to balance dozens of factors in a class

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True, but they also say their primary goal is to make sure as few people from the incoming freshmen class drop out. That's why so much premium is put on GPA + SATs because they are good indicators of how well a student would do at the school.</p>

<p>And if you ever visit college websites, they ALWAYS list GPA+SAT+Recs+Essays as the MOST important aspect of admission. ECs are listed on a 2nd tier lower than these items.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And you're so very very wrong--not to mention condescending--about colleges needing only a handful of playwrites and other "oddballs."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And you're so bad at reading. I never said playWRIGHTS (spelling is good yes?) were oddballs. I included oddballs as part of a list of all the people who depended on hooks to get into college. </p>

<p>And no, you are still wrong. The bulk of students are accepted based on academics. Few students are accepted with low stats yet vibrant ECs. You might draw up a few exceptions, but the majority of students will not fit this mold. </p>

<p>Also, most of the time, students with high stats also have incredible ECs. When schools mean they need a certain personality they are referring to THESE students - students who have strong academics AND a particular personality the school needs.</p>

140

<p>Jamimom, what percentage of your Asian clients are looking for majors outside science/math/engineering? Ballpark will do.</p>

<p>StressedOut...and boy, is your screen name deserved, you're wrong again.</p>

<p>Quote:
That's the common STEREOTYPE of asians. In reality, their as diverse as other people. And by God, how different can ECs be? You have volunteer work, music, research, jobs, sports, boy scouts, student council, blah blah blah. All of it is roughly the same and there is equal represenation in each activity from ALL ethnicities. </p>

<p>This is pure bull. Otherwise there would be tons of Asian football players, soccer players, tuba players, etc. etc. etc. AND THERE AREN'T. Some, yes, but nowhere relative to their numbers in the population. Fwiw, Asians are highly under-represented in the military, too.</p>

<p>Quote:
What specific EC do white people have in a much higher proportion than Asians? And is that particular EC so powerful that ad com officers are willing to reject more qualified people?</p>

<p>It's not any particular EC. Start with majors. Except for for maybe a dozen schools like Caltech, MIT, Harvey Mudd, Berkeley, and UCSD, the physical sciences, math, and engineering are going to comprise maybe 25 percent of a campus with the remainder being divided among the Social Science, Humanities, and the Arts...colleges aren't going to gut those faculty just to support a larger science/engineering faculty.</p>

<p>Also, you really need to get off from your definition of "more qualified." If you talk to virtually <em>any</em> admissions officer, they will tell you that they're <em>not</em> looking for a stats-based class. Their criteria may not matter to you, you may not like their criteria, but that's your problem...not theirs. As I've pointed out, there are fine institutions that operate on your theory...it's just that most of them aren't in the USA.</p>

<p>Beyond major and process, adcoms </p>

<p>Quote:
True, but they also say their primary goal is to make sure as few people from the incoming freshmen class drop out. That's why so much premium is put on GPA + SATs because they are good indicators of how well a student would do at the school.</p>

<p>Wrong wrong wrong. They want their students to be successful, BUT THAT'S WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THEIR OTHER CRITERIA. </p>

<p>Quote:
And if you ever visit college websites, they ALWAYS list GPA+SAT+Recs+Essays as the MOST important aspect of admission. ECs are listed on a 2nd tier lower than these items.</p>

<p>I would suggest that you really talk to some people who have been around the admissions business. For that matter, I suggest that you read books on the subject like Michele Hernandez' A IS FOR ADMISSIONS and Jacques Steinberg's THE GATEKEEPERS if you want to get a feel for how it's done. Or contact the staff here at College Confidential, who run a college counseling business.
The bottom line is that stats put you in the pool and that selection is then usually made on other basis. An admissions officer from Harvard told me that maybe 10 percent of their class is made up of "pure stats" applicants, with many times as many rejected who had the same stats.</p>

<p>Quote:
And you're so bad at reading. I never said playWRIGHTS (spelling is good yes?) were oddballs. I included oddballs as part of a list of all the people who depended on hooks to get into college.</p>

<p>If you noticed, I'm ill, it's late, I'm tired, and I made a typo that I caught and corrected. For what it's worth, I've published several hundred thousands words, maybe a million, both ficiton and non-fiction. And I'm giving you far more patience than you deserve.</p>

<p>Btw, defining people with hooks as "oddballs" will make you extremely popular at whatever campus you end up.</p>

<p>Quote:
And no, you are still wrong. The bulk of students are accepted based on academics. Few students are accepted with low stats yet vibrant ECs. You might draw up a few exceptions, but the majority of students will not fit this mold.</p>

<p>Well, you better start explaining how schools like Harvard and Yale have a quarter of their class with SAT's under 1400.</p>

<p>Quote:
Also, most of the time, students with high stats also have incredible ECs. When schools mean they need a certain personality they are referring to THESE students - students who have strong academics AND a particular personality the school needs.</p>

<p>Or maybe they just bring a diversity of experience and viewpoint to campus. There are nine-and-sixty kinds of social yeast...and colleges look for every single one of them.</p>