I think it is ridiculous to assume that the vast majority of men are not capable of hosting a woman in their home without acting inappropriately. It is quite common in the beginning stages of a relationship or among friends to visit each other’s apartments. It is part of getting to know someone. I think it is a very small percentage of men who invite women to their homes with the thought of forcing themselves on them. Things might progress organically once there but i would not link visiting a man’s apartment to some sort of dangerous situation.
No one said it was dangerous. It just creates a potential conflict.
Honestly, my D2 (who is very pretty and is in a male dominated environment) really is sick of this. She is tired of men striking up conversations based on her looks. She’d like to go to the library, teach a class, ride the bus, or go to the grocery without men “approaching” her. I DON’T think men have the right to just walk up to a woman in public and start flirting with them. It is different at a party or a bar where women might go to “see and be seen”. But not just out in public.
Yes and no one is going to watch out for you except you. It is not a good time for guys to sex up with women they don’t know or they could find themselves s victim of someone malicious and it’s not a good time for women who might not be secure in managing their sexual relationships or they might find themselves over their ability and feel like a victim.
This girl was 22. She was living in Brooklyn and supposedly a photographer and somehow was at a major event —an Emmy award after party on the other coast where she took the lead in approaching him. This alone raised my eyebrows. She probably grew up privileged and protected and was lacking in some street smarts of adulthood or she would not have that bio. I feel for her young pain but she’s not a victim of anyone but herself unless this whole thing was a set up and then I feel even more sorry for her cause her career is toast.
I agree with intparent. There’s a grocery store near me that’s sort of infamous as being a pick up place for adults. Men in there seem incapable of choosing their own produce and use that as an intro question “how can I tell if this peach is ripe?” That sort of thing gets old really quick.
When is it good for a guy to “sex up with women they don’t know”? It has NEVER been a good time for that. Yes, they may find that a woman calls them out on advances that aren’t appreciated. I have no sympathy for that.
@TatinG, my kid night stocked at Walmart summer before college started, and men used to ask her in the deodorant aisle what kind of Axe she liked the smell of the most. She was 17. It was sleazy.
Oh come on that story is old as time and will never change. Cuts both ways these days but guys rarely complain when women remove their clothes or are aggressive or they wake up and regret who is in their bed. They may not feel good about themselves but generally don’t feel the need to give an expose to some blog or ragtag website. Agency is agency and not limited to one gender.
Women are MUCH less likely to make moves to start with, and guys are much more likely to just go with it if it happens. I think your view is skewed because you have “threeboys”. They must come home with terrible stories of women accosting them in public. Or… probably not, at least not often. It is so tiring to hear of how awful those women are to men, when in reality it is a very tiny fraction of the harassment that goes on.
What is this responding to? That is, which is the story that is old as time? Adults creeping on teenagers at Walmart? Men pestering women who are trying to buy groceries? Men “sexing up” (I don’t know what this means) with women they don’t know?
That must be tough for you D, intparent. I once sat near two exceptionally attractive women at a Hard Rock Cafe who couldn’t get more that two minutes to themselves before being approached. The guys had to weave their way through about 10 other tables to get to them. The women were kind and direct, and the guys left without a ruckus, all twenty or so of them. Sometimes average looking has its benefits despite the blowback gotten by Mayim Bialak when she tried to point that out.
/rant
I have sworn off of assault and harassment threads but feel the need to snipe a bit. It has to do with the two main tools of the victim blamers, the four-pound wrecking hammer and the duct tape, one in one hand, one in the other.
Hammer, as in if they hadn’t done {A} then {B} wouldn’t have happened. It’s normal to rationalize other people’s pain (accidents, trauma, cancer, poverty, death) and figure why it would never affect us. We know a freshman who was roofied twice first semester. The correct, human reaction is, “How horrible.” Victim blamers question the circumstances, as in how a “reasonable” person would have avoided this. Their first assumption is that the person did something, anything, to deserve this.
Duct tape, as in if they didn’t talk within X days or are unwilling to say or do Y then they should just stay quiet. One of those nights, the roofied student woke up naked on the floor of a different house that the host party, got dressed and went back to the dorm room. Different victim blamers have different thresholds for a how long the victim has to talk about the trauma without being called a liar, money-grubber, self-promoter, or something similar. The human response should be, “I’m sorry.”
I have brought her up before, but I work with a woman who does victim counseling as a volunteer. She has lived through it - rapes, beatings, a kidnapping - all without a single perpetrator being punished. Every time she got hit with the 1-2 by the authorities, hammer, duct tape. She sees it again month after month. So please, those of you whose first reaction is not “How horrible,” do a little introspection. That roofied kid should merit both a little sympathy and time to come to terms with it.
/rant over
edit to see if I had a verboten word in there. Yep, sorry
Wow, that’s horrible. Makes you wonder what is going on at that college. Is there a spate of roofies? Does the administration know that freshmen are getting roofied at what sounds like it might be an alarming rate? What are they doing about it?
The students know, CF, and do their best to be careful. My guess is that the administration knows while actively trying to keep it quiet. My D graduated without ever setting foot in a fraternity. S1 started a year before her, saw it and warned her.
I wonder if the administration would start paying attention if someone sued them. Ordinarily I’m not in favor of lawsuits right and left, but if the administration is ignoring this danger to their students, knowing that students are committing serious crimes but ignoring it, that sounds actionable. They should at least be warning freshmen!
People flirt. There are hookups. Women approach good looking, rich , talented men. Men approach women. I just don’t know what the answer is, but I think young adults, either male or female, need to be cautious these days. Anything can come back to haunt you and potentially destroy your career years after an allegation. Serial predators can be and should be exposed.
Agree. The world is a very small place in reality.
Sad, but not at all surprised, that Simone Bieles has now opened up about her abuse by Larry Nassar when he was the US gymnastics team doc. A life sentence is not long enough for scum like him.
She said her sons consider her behind the times, and use they as a gender neutral singular pronoun. The sons think no one should ever assume anyone is agreeing to sex, no matter how they are dressed or if they accept an invitation to an apartment. The sons think it is their responsibility to be sure not to presume.
I just complimented her on what wonderful young people she has raised.
This was in the context of discussing the controversial Cat Person New Yorker story.
She identifies as a feminist, was at the March, and probably agrees with the Caitlin Flanagan article MIdwest67 linked to in post #641. I have been reading Flanagan quite a while and generally have trouble with her writings, though sometimes I think she makes good points.
This occurred to me as well. The author says she is from the South and talks to strangers. I do this too. In some ways, maybe this becomes about local culture. When I smile and say “hi” to men and women in the parking lot on my way into the grocery, or make chit chat while we wait in line, it’s not inviting them to get to know me any better. However, when younger, I was a whole lot more careful with my smiles and chit chat, and pretty good at shutting men down when they seemed too interested.
When balancing the rights of one individual to ask and the rights of another to privacy on the street, I really think the right to privacy prevails. However, “asking” is so much less a problem on this scale we are discussing than cat calling, or touching, or rubbing up against someone on public transport or uninvited masturbating in front of them, that I’m sort of okay with it when we discuss nuance. But I absolutely don’t think your daughter should have to spend her time worrying about this when she has much more important things on her mind.
Now that we have the internet, people have new ways to ask. On the street is not a necessity or a god given right. imho.
Have you seen the video of the woman walking down the street in NY and secretly filming the guys coming on to her? It is just creepy. It is really clearly an invasion of her privacy.
Can’t post it here, but if you Google “video of woman being catcalled on ny streets”, you will find it.
That must be tough for you D, intparent. I once sat near two exceptionally attractive women at a Hard Rock Cafe who couldn’t get more that two minutes to themselves before being approached. The guys had to weave their way through about 10 other tables to get to them. The women were kind and direct, and the guys left without a ruckus, all twenty or so of them. Sometimes average looking has its benefits despite the blowback gotten by Mayim Bialak when she tried to point that out.
/rant
I have sworn off of assault and harassment threads but feel the need to snipe a bit. It has to do with the two main tools of the victim blamers, the four-pound wrecking hammer and the duct tape, one in one hand, one in the other.
Hammer, as in if they hadn’t done {A} then {B} wouldn’t have happened. It’s normal to rationalize other people’s pain (accidents, trauma, cancer, poverty, death) and figure why it would never affect us. We know a freshman who was roofied twice first semester. The correct, human reaction is, “How horrible.” Victim blamers question the circumstances, as in how a “reasonable” person would have avoided this. Their first assumption is that the person did something, anything, to deserve this.
Duct tape, as in if they didn’t talk within X days or are unwilling to say or do Y then they should ■■■■. One of those nights, the roofied student woke up naked on the floor of a different house that the host party, got dressed and went back to the dorm room. Different victim blamers have different thresholds for a how long the victim has to talk about the trauma without being called a liar, money-grubber, self-promoter, or something similar. The human response should be, “I’m sorry.”
I have brought her up before, but I work with a woman who does victim counseling as a volunteer. She has lived through it - rapes, beatings, a kidnapping - all without a single perpetrator being punished. Every time she got hit with the 1-2 by the authorities, hammer, duct tape. She sees it again month after month. So please, those of you whose first reaction is not “How horrible,” do a little introspection. That roofied kid should merit both a little sympathy and time to come to terms with it.
/rant over