^and faculty, maybe teaching math/science
Local NPR was on the Sewanee campus this week covering the board’s decision to continue honoring Charlie Rose by allowing him to keep the honorary degree he received 2 years ago. Large numbers of students and faculty (and this parent) are unhappy with the decision. On the positive side, I guess, it is a life lesson to students about how predatory behavior continues to be enabled by many in power who have the ability to advance change, but refuse to do so. And it is also an example of how woefully out of touch some boards are–at least this one.
Lol, yes, last time I checked. And I have been an adjunct, TA and/or lecturer for most of the past 20+ years. I have degrees in engineering, math, and physics and have taught in all three areas.
@intparent, it’s not that I don’t believe your daughter’s story, although getting a full picture is difficult when it has been coming to us in bits and pieces like this. My issue is more with her apparent *interpretation/i of the situation and her expectations, and frankly, I’m having some trouble putting that into words.
sylvan, Do you think it is ever appropriate for a student to call a TA, Professor, etc. sweetheart? What about continuing after being asked not to do so? What is your advice to young people you know finding themselves in this situation?
From your posts, it is difficult for me to judge exactly where you stand on this, and it seems you would be in an excellent position to give advice. I’ve also been hoping QuantMech would post an opinion.
HarvestMoon’s post #984 seemed very much on target to me, and it seems very importatnt to me to teach young people how to navigate these situations appropriately, since they absolutely can have long term career consequences.
I was discussing this with my older D, who works for a consulting company in the higher education field. She says that many colleges now ask staff, faculty, RA, etc to report incidents like the one my D experienced where a student behaved inappropriately, especially where someone feels unsafe, so they can track if a student is having issues in multiple venues on campus. Because what may seem like a one-off blow up over how to calculate something for a lab could be part of a pattern that the school needs to be aware of.
Sounds to me, @sylvan8798, that maybe you’d just rather not have a TA bring this complaint to you because you wouldn’t know what to do with it. The info I had was piecemeal to start with – we’d just been texting to start with – but isn’t that true with many harassment cases? Women are embarrassed and angry, but feel like somehow they should be able to figure out how to handle It themselves. My D started where she felt safest (me) to vent some of that anger & embarrassment, but as she thought through what had happened, she decided that making sure the prof was aware of the issue was appropriate.
I think women in our generation (I assume we are about the same age) who’ve worked in male dominated fields (which I also do, in tech) have absorbed the lesson that we should just accept this kind of behavior from men. This generation isn’t treating it the same way – and I say more power to them. Just because we put up with this type of crap doesn’t mean that they should.
^Again, you’re trying to tell me what I think. When you say they shouldn’t put up with this kind of behavior, what all are you including in that from this incident?
I would say calling the TA a name she considers demeaning and has asked him to stop using. And shouting when he didn’t care for the answers he was given to his questions. Apparently he also told other students in the help room that she didn’t know what she was talking about and that they should also do the problem the way he wanted to. The prof specifically mentioned all those things in an email (very supportive) that the prof sent to D after discussing this with the department head, and said if ANY of these things happened again, she should tell him to leave and call security if he refuses. And your doubtful tone is evident in your posts, in case you weren’t aware of it.
Wow. @intparent 's D spoke up and told this guy to stop calling her sweetheart. And he did it several times again, after that. That’s aggressive and hostile and a challenge to her and I’m glad she took some action.
Setting aside the “sweetheart “ comment there is something galling about helping someone and them not acknowledging or appreciating that assistance. TA’s provide a very valuable service to students and are not compensated proportionately to the value they contribute. Even without the “sweetheart” comment I would have been irritated if the student raised his voice or became argumentative when I attempted to help him arrive at a solution to his problem. And his comments to other students were just uncalled for. Would he treat a professor in the same manner? Doubtful but he shouldn’t feel entitled to direct his wisecracks or frustration toward a TA either - male or female.
@sylvan think back to a thread you posted a while back about doing something nice for someone and then feeling unappreciated. (IIRC you stood up for yourself.) Then add in the belittling comment the student made and the comments to other students. Also consider this was her D’s work environment where her professional competency was being questioned by this student. Once she was unable to resolve it on her own can you understand why she might want to elevate this and have it addressed both from a personal and professional standpoint?
On top of that, he was shouting at her. She was afraid of him.
I guess I’m totally lost as to why the student came in to the help center in the first place if he thought he had done the problem correctly? Did he want to tell them he thought the book (or wherever he got the answer) was wrong? I’m missing something.
Sometimes there is more than one way to solve a problem but if in fact he was yelling that is wrong. The sweetheart thing is minor and can be tactfully addressed if it is that irritating. I thought of this thread because the guy at the store said “thanks hun” to me this morning…i suspects he says that to a lot of people or it is an affectation.
Being called “sweetheart/hon” by grocery clerks and waitstaff is a totally different discussion. imho.
This is the workplace and a workplace issue. In the workplace, I don’t see how it is ever acceptable, though maybe we give a pass to the elderly who mean well but never learned any better. It feels different to me if the one calling “sweetheart” uses it in a gender neutral way to all younger employees.
The audacity of a student calling a TA sweetheart is a scenario I’m having difficulty even imagining, before considering the rest of the behavior.
momofthreeboys: In your office, are you okay with someone younger, whom you supervise, calling you sweetheart? How would you handle it? Or would you just let it go?
If you asked them to stop and they didn’t - what would you do then?
adding: Does this happen to you at the office?
@sylvan8798 You are willfully choosing to nitpick at this and somehow make this my D’s fault. He came because he could not get his answer to match the answer in the book. And the reason was that he had set up the problem incorrectly. Which I said earlier in the thread. Why are you gaslighting?
I am very curious as to how you’d handle it differently than intparent’s D handled it.
She asked him not to call her that. What is your version of “tactfully addressing” the problem?
Probably because I’m older. When I was her age I had a boss who called me Ice Princess because I was pretty serious when young…it was harder then to hold your own with men. He could have called me sweetheart and it would have still been water off a duck. I can hold my own I guess. The young girls have it all over it these days so I can see why she elevated it if he was yelling that is now an acceptable thing to do although I have been screamed at by a male coworker while pregnant no less and didn’t need help…I just figured he was having a bad day and if you say nothing and look them straight in the eye they will generally run out of steam because you aren’t arguing back…but the sweetheart thing alone doesn’t feel worthy of asking for “help” in my opinion.
Oh, honey. They aren’t having a bad day. They are putting you down, and you are too brainwashed to notice.
Obviously the student is a stupid, sexist, horrid monster who will hopefully be expelled, and your D will have justice.
crossposted - so never mind - deleted post
This does seem to me an extremely useful discussion for young people, some of whom aren’t fortunate enough to have mentors like HarvestMoon. It is always reassuring and comfortaing to me to remember many women do go out of their way to help other women. Thank you. You know who you are.