I have no part in Haverford and I never defended their practices in this case. I agree with the complaints. My issues about the admissions process are general not specific. I am not in favor of special preferences for anyone. Admissions will never be about grades and scores only. Whatever the process, it should be the same for everyone and based on variables that the applicants control.
@WISdad23 I see your point, and largely agree with it, but the preferential treatment of selected groups of students, is currently standard practice for all US schools. How I wish that schools here were like Oxford or Cambridge where they only look at the studentâs scholastic ability and passion in the chosen field. Thatâs itârace, gender, other non-related major talents, legacies donât count.
Having a child who is asian, a girl, coming from a fairly affluent background, private school, my daughter obviously belongs to the worst demographic for college admissions. So at first I was against all preferential treatment. But obviously, this is not how schools see it. And now I understand their point. Obviously, the athletes contribute to school pride, so Iâm okay with that; the musicians, actors, debaters, researchers, writers are at least very good at what they do (whether on not it is related to their majors) so Im okay with that, too; students solely from a less privileged socio-economic background, first generation college students, minority applicants, coming from remote regions of the country/world, while they may not have had âspecial talentsâ other than their backgrounds, at least their backgrounds are unique and they provide diversity, along with their unique points of view to the school body, so I have finally come to terms with that too (especially when you agree with the philosophy that we all must to our fair share in giving as many underprivileged a chance to succeed), even if that means my daughter would be last in line and she has to be extra special to get the same attention. What I have not come terms with is the hook on legacy! These kids have done nothing to deserve the hook other than have a parent who went to the same school. That is probably my only remaining hang up.
As for the argument of why not treat an athlete like any other applicant with a special talent (such as a concert pianist), the difference here is that with the athlete, there is an âearly readâ, whereas with the others, there is none. So the other applicants with a hook while knowing that they have an easier path, were not promised anything. The crime is being told that âyou are likely inâ, whereas you are actually not. It will be most fair if athletics was considered a hook but not given any âearly readâ like all the other hooks. But if you are going to have an early ready anyways, you might as well be truthfulâŠ?
@laxworld I was a recruited athlete who went to college on a tuition scholarship at a D1 school, so I understand the process and your frustration with what is going with the Lax team at Haverford. Comment #91 was however, was rude and uncalled for. You claim to be a supportor and protector of young people - and yet paint Haverford families and their children as dishonest liars. In doing so you are show yourself as no better than those you are criticizing.
And furthermore @laxworld ALL the kids at Haverford have do things outside of school, likely 20 to 30 hours a week, and crack the books despite their exhaustion. That is definitely not a concept exclusive to athletes. In my sonâs case it was among other things it was a very physical paid job. How does that make him any less valuable than an athlete?
Somewhere over this thread it seems to me that the issue has kind of been changed
The problem is not should or should not athletes or others have an edge with admissions.It is about someone being told they are IN and then after following the rules that they were given they are out. Most would and are OK with a coach saying hey I have no pull with admissions. Then the student athlete or oboe player applies or does not apply knowing the rules.
It seems that this practice has not occurred just once but often over the past few years. That is wrong on many levels. My boys have gone through this process at another school one is now graduating and I can say this deception does not happen elsewhere. You know the rules, you do your homework and you then hope for the best with admissions.
@ohiopop well said.
^ Agree. Athletic recruiting, whether you think itâs fair or not, is a widespread, well-established practice. The issue seems to be that at least one Haverford coach is not playing by the accepted rulesâthe same ones his Div. 3 peers doâthereby deceiving young people.
Maybe because my kids are distance runners and therefore train 2-4 hours per day, 6-7 days per week ALL YEAR long except for a short break between seasons, not to mention compete at meets that can last as many as 7 hours, I think athletics is especially grueling. I didnât have an Intel kid, but my kids did participate in theater with key roles, the highest band and special ensembles, clubs (even president), etc. The commitment for those other ECâs pales by comparison to varsity athletics in a strong conference. Youâd have to be at a very high level in non-athletic ECâsâmeaning doing off Broadway shows, running a national student organizationâfor the time and effort to compare to that spent for years by a decent varsity athlete in a large public school or athletically competitive private school.
The regular conflicts with academics make it really tough to succeed in both school and sports. The high school theater, band, and student govt. kids donât miss school for their EC. In fact, student government, band, and chorus etc. are classes during the day, so no after school homework time is lost for these kids except for a few special events they may do. D frequently misses last period in order to travel to away meets, she missed a whole day for Penn Relays last week, and this week will miss after school AP exam review sessions due to a two-day conference track meet she canât miss (running on 3 relays). This in addition to losing 3 hours a day after school when others are studying.
Iâm not complaining, but people need to know itâs not like it was when we were kids. I did high school sports (lacrosse even), and it was nothing like this. For one thing, I didnât need to already be good at the sport before middle school. Middle school is when I learned. Now kids have to already participate in travel leagues to even make the middle school team, since a 125 kids or so try out each year. And we NEVER had any games or Sat. or Sun.
Totally and complete disagree @TheGFG My daughter was a runner as well at a high enough level to practice her sport at a D3 school. On top of running all three seasons at a State champion level HS she participated part of that time on a Nationally ranked Club soccer team, worked a part time job for two years, and was president of an active HS club. She also had near perfect SAT/ACt scores and was Salutatorian of a large public HS. My son on the other hand took an completely different path -participating in not a single sport after about the 7th grade - and was equally as busy and accomplished in his own right. I am very proud of both my kids - but totally disagree that the athletes experience was any more grueling or valuable than the non athletes.
Yes, spot on, @ohiopop (#101)!
I didnât say âmore valuable.â Sure, a student can accumulate enough involvement in other ECâs to equal varsity sports participation, but in terms of one-to-one correspondence,1 non-athletic involvement usually does not equal 1 sport. Youâd need to add together a few things to reach the same time commitment, or be at very high level (eg. first chair state orchestra). And I donât know in what state your D competed, but being a state champion in CA, NY, NJ, PA,TX, VA is also a lot tougher than being state champ in Idaho. D was good enough to be recruited to Stanford and never won more than a state sectional championship in this state. Now, the top high school runners are hitting times (using private coaching and more and better training) that would have been unthinkable even 5 years ago. Two high school girls just ran 4:11 for the 1500 at the Payton Jordan this weekend. Insane!
I donât want this to be an argument or comparison fest, but let me just say that the laziest and slowest kids on our high school teamâkids who were only ever JV for usâcould all run for a Div. 3 school somewhere and many do. They could never in a million years make the travel team at Williams or JHU, though. Totally different types of athletes.
@TheGFG , I am very in tune and aware of the track world. It was my daughters main sport from ages 9-13 as she was top ten in the country at USATF and AAU meets (both XC and Track) multiple times. This was out of Region 1 which is arguably one of the most difficult in the nation. She then turned to soccer for many years, but continued to run for her school team instead of club.
Great, so what one non-athletic EC did your son do that you think equals one sport?
A real life physically and mentally demanding job.
College Admissions loves to see kids that work, esp real, paid jobs. They realize it takes incredible time management skills for a High School kid to both work and maintain a high GPA. Kudos to your son!
Yes, Iâm sure it will help or has already helped him.
Highbury, does your D currently play soccer or run track for Haverford? I notice you have the school avatar. If so, can you comment on the recruiting experience?
@TheGFG , the avatar is for my son who will be attending Haverford in the Fall, so unfortunately I have no helpful insights on recruiting at Haverford. Good luck to your D as she goes through the process.
I have heard ZERO negative things about either Haverfordâs track/cross country or soccer coaches. In fact, the menâs track/cross country coach gets accolades for being an upstanding, committed, and straight shooting guy. Kids will choose Haverford specifically to train with him.
I do think this issue being described stems from one coach only, the menâs lacrosse coach. It sounds like an unfortunate situation not in keeping with what the school is about and the way other coaches conduct themselves. it would be nice if the schoolâs administration dealt with it.
@WISdad23 , I donât entirely disagree with you. But the fact remains that a âhookedâ athlete does, in fact, have that advantage at other schools. If Haverford doesnât offer it, it should be 100% transparent about it so the kid and fam can make an informed decision. That way, they can use it elsewhere, assuming they have the option (and usually they do).
Iâd also disagree that itâs âriggedâ. Rigged implies dishonestly and fraud. The schools pour a lot of $$ into their sports programs. Itâs not easy to be an elite athlete. They have to spend time and a lot of energy on the field and travel to compete while non-athletes are home brushing up on the SAT. It also shows discipline and ability to focus on something and become really good at it. All good qualities.
What I like about selective D3 sports is that they demand that the kid is otherwise admissible. If they are, then I see nothing wrong with giving that kid the nod as he/she fulfills an institutional need at the school.
One of my kids rowed in Seattle five days a week for three+ hours every single week, and sometimes had to travel on weekends. All that while carrying a full IB load (6 classes + other requirements). It was not easy for her to pull off both.
I have no stake in this (all three of my children have either graduated or enrolled in college already) and I recognize the reality that athletic recruits are given an enormous bump in college admissions. My question is what does âadmissibleâ mean? Iâm also genuinely curious so please donât bite my head off for asking this question: At a school like Haverford, with its very small size and unique personality, how can a coach ever assert with 100% confidence that a student is admissible? Does he read the essays, in particular the essays about the honor code or have someone in admissions read it and give the seal of approval? Iâm trying to understand how it works.