Athletic Relevance returning for some Ivy colleges….

College Search & Selection
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<p>I don’t see a disconnect between college sports and college academics, unless physical excellence is irrelevant in the life of humans.</p>

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<p>Put it this way, I didn’t even consider any school that didn’t have big-time programs in basketball AND football. I would say that the sports teams of schools played just as big a part in my decision as academics, and that is why I am going to UW Madison.</p>

<p>I guarantee you that the ivies are not recieving applications from thousands of qualified students that are instead choosing Duke, Michigan, and Notre Dame. Would I choose Alabama over Amherst or Penn State over Princeton simply because of sports? Hell Yes!! That’s how big sports are to me and I am not alone.</p>

<p>It’s alright if you don’t like sports, just don’t bash people who don’t devote all their time to “intellectual” pursuits “that actually matter.”</p>

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<p>Well, UNC’s athletic programs provide one example. Profit made from the football and basketball programs is returned to the university in the form of academic scholarships and aid money. </p>

<p>I’ve yet to see an arts or music program that generates tens of millions of dollars in profits for its parent university each year. Perhaps the arts should be on the chopping block before athletics?</p>

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<p>The love of college basketball that I developed in college (Indiana) has served me incredibly well in my career. I am included in outings that have been fun and beneficial. Same goes for my law partner (female) who is a rabid Alabama football fan. It’s a lifetime of fun.</p>

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<p>Great, I’m glad there are good choices for all. It’s not like the Ivies need your app. They seem to be plenty popular with many of the top students in the world despite their lack of big time sports. And some of those top students choose Ivies or LACs or many other top academic colleges BECAUSE they lack big time sports. </p>

<p>Like I said, it’s a good thing that there are good choices for all. For those who want big sports and all the baggage that goes with it, fine. But what I object to is the notion, repeated endlessly by Hawkette on many threads, that ALL colleges should be big sports schools. Why is this necessary? Let the SEC be the SEC and let the Ivy League be the Ivy League. The Ivy League does not need to be a sports powerhouse. They tried that in the past and were very successful. But they wisely abandoned that path because it was distracting them from their real purpose of education. I worry, with the lowering of their own academic standards to recruit basketball talent (see first link in post #9), that Harvard is being seduced back into the bad old days.</p>

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<p>Princeton has Chris Young, Ross Ohlendorf, and Will Venable all playing in the Major Leagues. Penn has Mark DeRosa, Yale has Craig Breslow, Columbia has Fernando Perez, and Dartmouth has Brad Ausmus. Yeah I know you guys are all about FB and basketball, but the Ivies aren’t too shabby when it comes to baseball, which definitely should be the 3rd biggest college sport (go away hockey and soccer! :)). Actually, they still aren’t very good but they do pull in some talent; they just have trouble harnessing it. The problem is the location. I’d bet that if the Ivy League were in Texas, Ivy League schools would have respectable athletics.</p>

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The sad thing though is that this separation does occur. Both Duke and Georgetown recruit remarkably mediocre students; I think I read that the Duke cutoffs were something like a 2.8 GPA and a 17 on the ACT (it was in an article about a Duke prospect who didn’t yet make the cutoffs - he eventually played for Duke regardless). Even Stanford, I’ve noticed, has some rather average students as athletes; Scout.com profiles showed Stanford football players with GPAs/SATs of 3.5/1050 (3.4/950 was the lowest I saw), which, while excellent compared to pretty much all major D1 programs, doesn’t cut it for me when discussing maintaining the spirit of the true student-athlete.</p>

<p>But don’t get me wrong. I love college athletics. I just don’t think the Ivies are the place for top-notch college football/basketball, because that comes with a heavy price.</p>

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<p>I hope Jeremy Lin can help Harvard to a March Madness berth. Then I hope he can succeed in the NBA and become a force in the Asian-American community. Best of luck to him.</p>

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<p>[Georgetown</a> Hoyas men’s basketball - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown_Hoyas_men’s_basketball]Georgetown”>Georgetown Hoyas men's basketball - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>Among the “remarkably mediorce” former basketball players at Georgetown are a Presidential Medal of Freedom winner, the current Presidential National Security Advisor and former Supreme Commander of NATO, the former NFL Commissioner, the former Chairman of First Chicago Bank and the man who brought National League Baseball back to NY (William Shea) as well as the Past President of the NBA Players Association (Pat Ewing). If this is mediocre, than what pray tell is excellent?</p>

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<p>You may well see Jonathan Wallace of the 2007 Final Four team in politics as well someday. He has already been admitted to Georgetown Law and Ron Blaylock of the 198os teams is President of a boutique Investment Bank.</p>

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<p>Dikembe Mutombo of the early 1990s Georgetown teams speaks nine languages fluently, which I wager is more is more than what the full bench of any given Ivy team speaks. Mutombo’s philanthropic efforts in his home country have led to his nomination for a Nobel Peace prize.</p>

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<p>Are you seriously cherry picking the best attributes of any person to ever put on a G-town jersey in its history vs. the average Ivy player?</p>

<p>I mean, that tells you everything you need to know right?</p>

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<p>The-prestige and coureur, I think it is possible for institutions that are very serious about academics to have a strong athletic tradition. I don’t think one takes away from the other, although I certainly agree with you that the presence of a rich athletic tradition is not for every one and that the absence of athletic tradition does not prevent universities from forming a vibrant and engaging undergraduate environment. Indeed, schools like Brown, Caltech, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Columbia, MIT and NYU. </p>

<p>On the other hand, many top universities have managed to provide a nurturing environment for athletics to thrive without short-changing or hurting their commitment to academics. That includes institutions such as Duke, Georgetown, Michigan, Notre Dame, USC, Stanford,Texas-Austin, UCLA, UNC, UVa and Wisconsin-Madison. Few would argue the commitment those universities make to academics. Indeed, most of those universities were considered academic powerhouses before they became athletic powerhouses and their academics have not suffered as a result.</p>

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<p>Current Directors Cup Standings (Latest - 14 Jan '10)</p>

<ul>
<li>Georgetown (94)</li>
<li>Brown (101)</li>
</ul>

<p>A whopping 7 spot difference. If Georgetown is supposedly this amazing sports powerhouse and Brown isn’t, how can you explain these two schools being virtually neck and neck?</p>

<p>According to the latest Wiki reference, Brown supports 37 Varsity teams vs. 22 Varsity teams at Georgetown. It’s not clear to me that Georgetown is this vastly superior athletic powerhouse vs. Brown, which has been featured in the College Sports Honor Roll as one of the top 20 athletic programs in the country by U.S. News & World Report:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/020318/archive_020363.htm[/url]”>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/020318/archive_020363.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Perhaps you are underrating / underestimating Brown (or perhaps dismissing it outright). For example, Brown women’s rowing team has taken home 6 National Titles in the last 12 years. Its men’s lax team is perennially ranked nationally with numerous post season appearances. Not exactly the academic pushover in the arena you seem to be painting it as.</p>

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<p>Brown has taken home Ivy Football Championships 2 out of the last 5 years, it plays in the ultra competitive ECAC hockey league, its men’s lax team is always competitive nationally, its rowing teams are amongst the best in the world – taking home multiple national titles with representation on Olympic squads… etc., etc.</p>

<p>Sure, Brown isn’t going to be replacing Stanford or UCLA as an athletic powerhouse, but looping it in with Caltech and MIT? It’s a bit much.</p>

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<p>That’s the thing, some people here use the phrase “athletic relevance” when what they really mean is “spectator basketball and football, and sometimes baseball, relevance”.<br>
The latter is what their posts should be saying.</p>

<p>If such posts were to continue, that is.</p>

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<p>OK let’s take a look at those “spectator” sports (football, basketball, baseball and then let’s add the other major collegiate spectator sports, ice hockey, soccer and lacrosse). </p>

<p>Let’s stick with the Georgetown vs. Brown example:</p>

<p>FOOTBALL <a href=“the%20USA%20Today%20Sagarin%20computer%20ranking%20is%20the%20only%20one%20that%20I%20know%20of%20that%20lists%20the%20complete%20Div-1%20NCAA%20teams%20in%20one%20ranking”>i</a>*
[USATODAY.com[/url</a>]
Brown - 166
Georgetown - 241
Winner: Brown</p>

<p>BASKETBALL
[url=<a href=“http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/weeklyrpi/2009MBBrpi1.html]2009”>2009 NCAA Men's Basketball RPI]2009</a> NCAA Men’s Basketball RPI](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt09.htm]USATODAY.com[/url”>http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt09.htm)
Brown - 307
Georgetown - 63
Winner: Georgetown</p>

<p>BASEBALL
[2009</a> NCAA Men’s Baseball RPI](<a href=“http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/weeklyrpi/2009MBArpi1.html]2009”>2009 NCAA Men's Baseball RPI)
Brown - 121
Georgetown - 245
Winner: Brown</p>

<p>SOCCER
[2009</a> NCAA Men’s Soccer RPI](<a href=“http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/weeklyrpi/2009MSOrpi1.html]2009”>2009 NCAA Men's Soccer RPI)
Brown - 41
Georgetown - 67
Winner: Brown</p>

<p>ICE HOCKEY
[NCAA.com</a> - The Official Website of NCAA Championships - NCAA](<a href=“http://www.ncaa.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/ncaa/sports/m-hockey/auto_pdf/2009-RPI-1st]NCAA.com”>http://www.ncaa.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/ncaa/sports/m-hockey/auto_pdf/2009-RPI-1st)
Brown - 56
Georgetown - no team
Winner: Brown</p>

<p>LACROSSE
[2009</a> NCAA Men’s Lacrosse RPI](<a href=“http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/weeklyrpi/2009MLArpi1.html]2009”>2009 NCAA Men's Lacrosse RPI)
Brown - 12
Georgetown - 19
Winner: Brown</p>

<p>So, out of the major collegiate spectator sports, in terms of rankings last year, Brown beat out Georgetown in every single one except for basketball – which one would expect because the Hoyas are obviously known for their strong program (i.e. recruit out the yin yang, so of course they are going to be better). But that, if anything, seems to be an outlier for Georgetown, relatively speaking.</p>

<p>Does that surprise anyone? It sure as heck surprised me. I thought to myself before doing this research “man, I bet Brown does a lot better than people give it credit for” … and lo and behold – not only does it do a respectable job vs. Georgetown – let’s face it – Brown wipes the floor with Georgetown.</p>

<p>I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves.</p>

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<p>Perhaps most of these ideas have been covered already in one of these other threads?</p>

<p>Not to be redundant or anything…</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/722281-ivy-athletics-can-they-relevant-again-major-sports-6.html?highlight=athletics[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/722281-ivy-athletics-can-they-relevant-again-major-sports-6.html?highlight=athletics&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/632814-harvard-catching-positives-athletic-life-will-other-ivies-follow.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/632814-harvard-catching-positives-athletic-life-will-other-ivies-follow.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-life/562352-fun-starts-again-college-football-top-colleges.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-life/562352-fun-starts-again-college-football-top-colleges.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/481786-why-cant-ivies-do-what-stanford-davidson-duke-vandy-nd-do.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/481786-why-cant-ivies-do-what-stanford-davidson-duke-vandy-nd-do.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/460941-winter-athletic-excellence-campus-enthusiasm-usnwr-top-30-national-universit.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/460941-winter-athletic-excellence-campus-enthusiasm-usnwr-top-30-national-universit.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/389224-athletic-life-college-football-scene.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/389224-athletic-life-college-football-scene.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/425236-winter-athletic-life-usnwr-top-30-natl-unis.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/425236-winter-athletic-life-usnwr-top-30-natl-unis.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/359084-collegiate-sports-should-part-college-search-process.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/359084-collegiate-sports-should-part-college-search-process.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/363898-academics-social-life-athletic-achievement-usnwr-top-20-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/363898-academics-social-life-athletic-achievement-usnwr-top-20-a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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Is this a legitimate argument or an attempt to stir things? Of course Gtown baskerball, Duke basketball, etc etc. All have fantastic, distinguished alumni! My point is that the academic standards for their players are low, to a point where some of the players are there to be basketball players, not student-athletes (heck, this is almost a direct quote I got from someone who works at Duke). This doesn’t mean, once again (and I expected this to be an obvious point, not something I would have to elucidate), that none of these programs have many exceptional student-athletes greatly exceed those academic expectations, because of course many do.</p>

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Indeed, we are talking about mainstream athletic relevance, and this means the sports that generate the big money (and no, I’m not talking about money from the generous donation of a class of 'whatever rower/golfer/etc).</p>