Athletic Relevance returning for some Ivy colleges….

College Search & Selection
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<p>The last time Harvard participated in the NCAA men’s basketball tournament, Harry Truman was the President. That could be about to change. </p>

<p>Tonight Harvard plays at Cornell in a sold-out Newman Arena for first place in the Ivies. Cornell also has a strong team and both schools are legitimate contenders to place teams into the annual fun known as March Madness. Some newspapers describe this as the most important Ivy League game in several decades and maybe the Game of the Year in college basketball.</p>

<p>How</a> Did the Ivy League Get So Good? - WSJ.com </p>

<p>Over the past few years, Harvard has taken steps to improve their athletic product, knowing that doing so can enhance undergraduate non-academic life and also excite the passions of many alums. As Microsoft CEO and Harvard alum Steve Ballmer was recently quoted, “Why can’t the basketball team be great? Finally, things are building.” </p>

<p>I share Ballmer’s sentiments and think that this is great for Harvard, for their students and for their alumni. Same for Cornell. Good luck to both teams tonight. Should be a lot of fun.</p>

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<p>And the best part is they have apparently done it without offering athletic scholarships. Hopefully they will continue to excel while keeping athletics in its proper place - secondary to academics. It would be a shame to see Harvard lose it way and get caught up in the constant, dismal rain of schools that disgrace themselves in various athletic scandals.</p>

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<p>I don’t have much hope. Penn got to the March tourny a few years ago and bounced out in the first round to Texas. All the announcers could do was talk about the high SAT scores that were on the court…
I would love to see Ivy sports be stronger, but it will take a miracle…(or $$$$)</p>

<p>I know athletes that were offered a LOT of “need based” money by Harvard- much more than they “needed” from other schools, including Ivy schools…</p>

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<p>That does not mean anything. Harvard offers much more need-based aid than other schools, including Ivy Schools, to ALL students, not just athletes. There have been no allegations that Harvard has ever offered disguised athletic scholarships in the form of need-based aid.</p>

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<p>The expression “athletic relevance” makes me laugh. It is an oxymoron. Intercollegiate athletics couldn’t be more irrelevant.</p>

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<p>Coureur,
You’re right that Harvard is not giving athletic scholarships, but Harvard’s generous financial aid policies make it a pretty level financial playing field in the competition against scholarship-awarding institutions. With a threshold of $180,000, I doubt that there are many basketball families that wouldn’t qualify for full FA at Harvard. </p>

<p>I also wonder if Harvard’s greater financial strength is giving it an edge in athletic recruiting vs. the other Ivies. I don’t think that all of the Ivies have the same resources and it will be interesting to see how/if other schools respond to Harvard’s increased athletic life effort. </p>

<p>As for your fears about Harvard getting caught up in “the constant, dismal rain of schools that disgrace themselves in various athletic scandals,” there are lots of excellent examples to counter that. Plenty of great colleges (Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame) have managed to avoid such scandals while distinguishing themselves in the classroom and in top athletics. No reason to think that Harvard and some of the Ivies can’t do as well as them in a major sport like basketball. </p>

<p>MOWC,
I think Harvard has the money and I also think that they’re spending some on improving their athletic life for their students and alums. </p>

<p>I don’t expect (or want) Harvard to become Ohio State, but there is no reason why they can’t do what Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, etc. are doing. For some students and many alums, this would be a nice uptick in the athletic life on their campuses. </p>

<p>You’ve posted elsewhere about how much you enjoy the Vanderbilt athletic games. I think that many folks in the Ivies would enjoy it just as much if it was available to them. I bet that there’s a lot of excitement today and tonight on Cornell’s campus.</p>

<p>CH,
College students spend 150+ hours per week somewhere other than the classroom. There are lots of options and often hundreds of non-academic student organizations on a college’s campus. I think that such things are highly relevant to one’s undergraduate experience, even if they have little to nothing to do with their academic experiences. </p>

<p>College athletics are entertainment and can be, along with club/intramural athletics, a daily part of a student’s life. For alumni, they are a way to stay connected on a regular basis (I have a close Cornell friend who has been talking about today’s game for weeks). </p>

<p>I really think you are missing a good time, but even so, I hope you will reconsider damning those of us who happen to enjoy the games and the festivities that often accompany the games.</p>

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<p>We love the Vanderbilt games, but the SEC is a whole different animal than the Ivy League. Never the two shall meet…</p>

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<p>As a double Ivy alum, I wish athletic success were that easy. Rice, Northwestern and Vandy have enjoyed only sporadic athletic success at best, although Vandy has had some strong basketball teams. Harvard’s basketball recruiting was the subject of a very negative NY Times article, reporting that returning varsity players were told by the new coach not to try out and that students of questionable academic readiness were recruited. Cornell’s success is built on the son of an NBA player choosing Cornell–and they have lost both their NCAA tourney games by large margins. Penn and Princeton, the traditional Ivy powers, have hit on hard times.</p>

<p>Success in football would require finding dozens of players, not just the handful who can turn around a basketball team. Stanford is the best counterexample, but I do not know what scrutiny would reveal about their sporadic football success.</p>

<p>As for Cornell/Harvard being the gameof the year–let’s not kid ourselves. Pairs of much more highly ranked teams have already played each other numerous times.</p>

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<p>No reason except that Harvard’s hands are already getting dirty in this current surge in basketball prowess:
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/sports/ncaabasketball/02harvard.html?_r=1&ei=5070&en=79399450c2d03b76&ex=1205038800&emc=eta1&pagewanted=all[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/sports/ncaabasketball/02harvard.html?_r=1&ei=5070&en=79399450c2d03b76&ex=1205038800&emc=eta1&pagewanted=all&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Plus, I’m happy for Stanford and the others you list, but a few flowers growing in a toxic waste dump do not prove that the dump is not a big problem or that other flowers stand a good chance of growing. They are more the exception that proves the rule. And college sports is a huge toxic waste dump:</p>

<p>[Downfall</a> Of USC Basketball - Southern California Trojans, O.J. Mayo, College Basketball](<a href=“http://ballhype.com/story/downfall_of_usc_basketball/]Downfall”>http://ballhype.com/story/downfall_of_usc_basketball/)
[The</a> Next Big Recruiting Scandal?](<a href=“http://basketball.about.com/b/2009/05/05/the-next-big-recruiting-scandal.htm]The”>http://basketball.about.com/b/2009/05/05/the-next-big-recruiting-scandal.htm)
[Recruiting</a> Scandal Brewing At UConn - CBS News](<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/26/sportsline/main4894072.shtml]Recruiting”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/26/sportsline/main4894072.shtml)
[Top</a> 10 Scandals in College Sports | Online Colleges](<a href=“http://www.onlinecolleges.net/2009/10/13/top-10-scandals-in-college-sports/]Top”>http://www.onlinecolleges.net/2009/10/13/top-10-scandals-in-college-sports/)
[Pete</a> Carroll, Tim Floyd, USC and Scandal (3rdUpdate) - Bruins Nation](<a href=“http://www.bruinsnation.com/2008/5/15/508939/pete-carroll-tim-floyd-usc]Pete”>http://www.bruinsnation.com/2008/5/15/508939/pete-carroll-tim-floyd-usc)
[College</a> athletics scandals erupt nationwide | Academe | Find Articles at BNET](<a href=“http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3860/is_200307/ai_n9261651/]College”>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3860/is_200307/ai_n9261651/)
[Timeline:</a> Colorado recruiting scandal - College Football - ESPN](<a href=“LIVE Transfer Talk: Madrid to wait a year to sign Davies - ESPN”>Timeline: Colorado recruiting scandal - ESPN)
[Power</a> couple - College Basketball - Rivals.com](<a href=“http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jo-pumps040108&prov=yhoo&type=lgns]Power”>http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jo-pumps040108&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)
[mental_floss</a> Blog 4 Wildly Illegal College Recruiting Scandals](<a href=“http://blogs.static.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/25342.html]mental_floss”>http://blogs.static.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/25342.html)</p>

<p>I can go on linking to more and more of these scandal articles if you like. There is an endless supply of them.</p>

<p>USC was supposed to be getting better academically and now running a wonderful, clean sports program too. Well, in case you hadn’t heard, the basketball program recently went on probation and Pete Carroll, the beloved, “squeaky clean” football coach just fled town to the NFL - one step ahead of the NCAA posse.</p>

<p>It’s a dirty, dirty business out there.</p>

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<p>The NFL, the NBA, ESPN, CBS, ABC, and advertising departments across the country have a few billion reasons to disagree with you. Not to mention the schools themselves.</p>

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<p>I’m sure they do. I have no doubt that the pro leagues absolutely love it that so many colleges have decided to devote so much of their effort and resources to providing them with free farm systems. Saves them the trouble and expense.</p>

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<p>Eh, don’t be so sure. In the mid 90’s, here’s what Northwestern, one of your favorite look-they-combine-sports-and-athletics schools, was embroiled in:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Dion Lee and Dewey Williams (basketball players) were charged in a point shaving scandals. They intentionally played badly to change the outcome of the games. Each was sentenced to a month in prison.</p></li>
<li><p>Dennis Lundy (football player) was found guilty of fumbling the ball intentionally at the goal line to change the outcome of the games.</p>

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<li>Several other former Northwestern football players were convicted of perjury for lying to grand juries that were investigating betting at the school.</li>
</ul></li>
</ul>

<p>Yes, these are not recruiting scandals per se, but they support coureur’s assertion that it’s a dirty, dirty business. And some of us would prefer not to see schools tainted by that type of thing, and would prefer that sports be treated as a fun recreational activity, not as a big business where the outcome is meaningful.</p>

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<p>There are many ways in which universities should strive to become “relevant” but intercollegiate athletics certainly is not one of them. LOL What a waste of resources it is to strive for “relevance” in watching other people play silly games. Yes, it can become a corrupting influence but, more than that, it diverts our energy and resources from endeavors that are truly beneficial.</p>

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<p>There was a thread on the Cornell subforum, asking about best sports programs there, and it took a while before someone thought of basketball.</p>

<p>They’ve been pretty decent at hockey and lacrosse for extended periods of time.
Some people there care a bit about those sports, particularly hockey, to get their spectator sports diversion kick. On the other hand basketball is IMO a temporary flash in the pan, it will likely not stick. </p>

<p>When they go back to their inevitable complete obscurity in that sport people in the greater community won’t much care IMO. Because it was not something they were traditionally thought to be good at, and it won’t be good long enough for people to come to believe in it as a thing there. Plus, even now it’s probably not really that good, by national standards. Hockey and lacrosse were NCAA tournament teams, near the top, not the bottom. They are good at some other sports (Wrestling, fencing, some track), that most people don’t really care much about, even there.</p>

<p>Many people there simply don’t care about sports at all. If they did they would have gone to USC or Penn State or something.</p>

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<p>For those of you who think College athletics is a huge toxic waste dump, today’s Georgetown-Duke game with the President in attendance belies that viewpoint. It was a beautiful game between two great academic and athletic programs.</p>

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<p>collegehelp</p>

<p>I’m surprised at your blatant disrespect for (intercollegiate) sports. The “silly games” you mention are serious time commitments and are significantly relevant on a global scale. Your narrow mindset confuses me!</p>

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<p>I also love college sports, but we have fought this fight too many times already on these forums.</p>

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<p>College sports are highly relevant to the world of sports but, except as a possible way for a few very talented kids to get scholarships, are completely irrelevant to the world of education. At some point a college needs to ask itself what it really is - an academy of higher learning or a sponsor for sports programs? …and set its priorities accordingly.</p>

<p>Colleges already do this to a large extent today. When you see a college that pays its football coach way more than it pays its top professors or even the college president, it’s clear where its priorities lie. It has already answered that question with its dollars.</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>Except that successful big-time sports programs often generate a substantial profit, which in turn is directed to financial aid, scholarships and other areas that benefit the university as a whole.</p>

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<p>^^Yeah, except that it doesn’t. Only a few college sports programs turn a profit in the first place, and most of those plow the money back into the sports program. I’ve never yet seen an endowed academic professorship that was funded by the football program or any other sports team.</p>