Attracting--and RETAINING--Low-Income Students

Student Lounge College Life
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<p>" I'm going to an upper private LAC, and so far my lack of money has inspired one awkward moment. I think all my roommates are going to a concert but I'm definitely not paying 100$ for a couple of hours. I'd have to really really like the band."</p>

<p>Amazing to me to think of students paying $100 to go to a concert. One needn't be low income to not be able to do that. S didn't qualify for need-based aid, but -- since we're not wealthy -- is working in college and taking out some loans in addition to getting help from H and me. No way would he have been able to pay $100 for a concert. Heck, H and I wouldn't even do that ourselves.</p>

<p>Fortunately, there are free and low cost activities on probably all college campuses, including those that have large numbers of affluent students.</p>

22

<p>
[quote]
and people are worried about them not fitting in with the rich kids? Come on. While the college I'll be attending isn't exactly elite, believe me, I think that I will "fit in" just fine.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not going to try to convince you of otherwise unless and until you have the experience, but in my involvement with many other low-income students, I've seen the difficulty of "fitting in" quite often. Here's one shining example: the low-income student explained that all of her friends were middle- or upper-income students, and while for the most part their relationship was seamless and blind to socioeconomic differences, there were many instances when they would want to go out to the city and she simply could not go, because she didn't have the money for it. Even though she was on heavy financial aid, she simply didn't always have the money to go to restaurants, bowling, etc.</p>

<p>Other differences, which Sally_Rubenstone alluded to, are materialistic. Some that I've heard: low-income students often don't have new and fashionable clothes, they don't have all the neat electronics that others do (BlackBerry, laptop, digital camera, printer, iPod), or they don't have all the items that other students pile into their dorms during move-in days (microwave, mini fridge, new bed set, good bike, new binders, or a bunch of smaller items that together can be rather expensive for low-income students).</p>

<p>I know for a fact that I would've fit in more easily, in this aspect, at a school like Berkeley (with nearly 1/3 Pell Grantees) rather than one like Stanford.</p>

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<p>Pretty many people seem to be going- it's the week after we move in, so it's sort of a "let's go bonding" thing. I don't really like the musician that much so I'm not upset or anything. I was worried that I'd seem boring or something because I didn't want to go, but I didn't want to explain that I don't have the money. But that's okay, my roommates and I have other less expensive activities planned too. And there's plenty to do on campus too, especially the first week.</p>

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<p>I will write more when I am not so busy at work with specific examples, but I want to say that socially, and not academically, my first year experience at Stanford was painful. I should note that I am fairly shy, so that contributed, and that I am one of those extreme hardship cases, so that also was a factor, but I ALSO faced outright hostility from my better off classmates. At Stanford, most of the low-income kids I talk to don't struggle academically, there are elite anywhere (like all Stanford students), but all of them have had social problems. Especially white students who don't have a community center to go to. More then once I have met students who have had to seek counseling.</p>

<p>Stanford provides incredibly generous financial aid during the school year, but there are extra emergency things that happen that they don't cover. For example, I have had some serious medical problems that I have had to take out loans for because I can't go to my parents (who are not contributing to my education) or anyone else in my family. Which I realize is not such a big loan debt to graduate with, but still it puts me in a financial bind during part of the year when I have had to use a credit card since Stanford will only give me loans to cover cost of attendance. I also don't have a whole lot of resources over the summer, and Stanford expects you to take out loans if you want to take extra classes or something. To someone from a poor background the choice between working and educational enrichment is determined in dollars. I would like to point out that I have taken care of all of this on my own, and that I don't intend to complain, I am extremely grateful for the fact that Stanford has lifted me out my awful childhood and given me the opportunities that they have. But at a university where 70 percent of students make more than 100,000 dollars and only 13 percent are on Pell grants there are going to be huge disparities between the truly low-income kids and the majority of the population.</p>

<p>Will write more, later. Have a lovely evening.</p>

25

<p>I don't know if this is off-topic, but I've always wondered how colleges look at your finances when deciding the amount of financial aid to give you, if any. If they're just looking at your family's combined income, do they take into account the cost of living in your area? </p>

<p>For example, I live in the SF Bay Area, which is one of the most expensive places to live in the country. The house prices here are pretty insane. Median price for a house is somewhere around 600k. So someone making 100k a year here is not gonna have as much flexibility with their money as someone earning 100k somewhere where the cost of living is much much lower.</p>

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<p>There are some really smart really well prepared very low income kids at our H.S., and we have observed them getting very good scholarships to top schools but having trouble with things that upper and middle income families can handle: getting to orientation. getting to school in the fall. sleeping overnight in the city the night before they move into their dorm room. buying books, school supplies, dorm room supplies. paying to join an intramural team? a no go. And trying to find a job and work when you are taking hard classes at a top school? that makes things really hard. It sounds like more schools may be starting to become aware of this. Low income kids shouldn't be starting off freshman year feeling stressed and financially stressed.</p>

<p>It is very nice that many colleges offer many free programs in the evenings and on the weekends.</p>

27

<p>Fascinating. I often feel "conflicted about this subject." I have to resist a "rant" about my inner rage on such matters. LOL. </p>

<p>But in short there are several aspects of this subject that concern me. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>I have a healthy amount of resentful motivation (I call it that because it motivates me) against the privileged elite in society. Kids who went to prep schools, had lots of SAT help, and then got huge merit scholarships....it just seems to be endless. The only way I can deal with that in a healthy manner is to work harder and to basically ignore them. No, its not their fault they have "special" contacts for those dream jobs when they graduate (whether its wallstreet or the US Supreme Court)....contacts ordinary students would NEVER have even with a 4.0 gpa upon graduation. But it wears on me.</p></li>
<li><p>I have SUPREME empathy for the middle class average kids (and their families) who bear the brunt of taxes, mortgages, and ordinary expenses and then get insulted with a lot of crumbs in financial aid.....so they either go into debt to afford the top schools (if they can even get in) or they go to the local state school (flagship maybe....). </p></li>
<li><p>The very poor who are blessed with excellent genes and high intelligence (the schools actually have not much to do with it....its mostly genetic) and get admitted to the best schools, well....I congratulate them and wish them the very best and applaud their admission. Schools THROW money at them, so they are on their way. The very poor who are unfortunately also poor in school skills are not likely going to succeed and they end up being dependent upon the state and federal government to survive: welfare, foodstamps, etc....and it goes down from there. Very sad. I dont have a solution, except to keep trying and keep them in school as long as we can. </p></li>
<li><p>BUT.....I am also very skeptical of all this whining and complaining and "poor poor pitiful students" mantra. Because when I was coming along (drum roll for my personal rant....) my parents were middle class but could NOT afford to send us kids to college and we were expected to work (from age 14) and pay for it myself. I joined the military, got the GI Bill, and still had three jobs. I often ate macaroni and cheese (I cant eat it anymore I ate so much of it) and tuna fish to survive. I had tattered jeans. I paid for my own car, my own insurance, my own gasoline. I went to a private college, a lot cheaper than now, but still expensive for its day. I graduated with high honors and went onto graduate school. Am I whining? NO! I am proud of my background. MOST KIDS IN COLLEGE THEN were in the same boat. We joked about being "poor college kids". We didnt expect ANYONE to give us freebies and pamper us.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I think the problem today is there is TOO MUCH MONEY for SOME people....and it is a glaring problem on college campuses. Its pretty tough on any kid who is struggling to get by and taking student loans and some rich kid in the room next door (or worse..a room mate) is on a full ride scholarship (but is really not smarter....75 pts on an SAT score is like what? 10 questions?...), driving a new BMW, wearing designer clothes everyday. So its a "learning opportunity" I would tell them. But by the same token, it is the norm for a LOT of kids. Life is full of inequalities and injustice and hypocrisies. There is no Nirvana. </p>

<p>A lot of the problem is exacerbated by the egregious increases in tuition in private colleges the last 10 years (its like a black hole.....where does that money go?) and the OUTRAGEOUS expenses for room and board. I mean asking 10k or 12k for a room the size of a postage stamp that is double occupancy? Yes, I know some of that goes to security, power, lights, air conditioning, communications, etc. </p>

<p>One administrator had the temerity to admit to me, "If we dont raise our prices, we are viewed by our peers as a lesser school." UNBELIEVABLE.</p>

<p>If we could just tell our kids that their student loans and our tuition payments are an investment that will reap huge dividends when they get that high paying job? Some of those jobs are flash in the pan....wallstreet isnt all that its cracked up to be....its brutal in fact. And how can they afford to buy a home if they have student loans up the wazzoo from undergrad/grad school/law school? Not a good way to start their life, if you ask me. </p>

<p>Its daunting. </p>

<p>So in short its, "stop whining, keep working, don't worry, be happy, and HAVE A NICE DAY!" </p>

<p>Ugh.</p>

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<p>another thought: It helps if kids "find their social niche" in college and hang with kids who are either in the same boat, or hang with kids who are outstanding human beings and were raised with a "share and share alike" mentality....and who help friends...to do those special things that are needed to take the pressure off or have a small respite or escape from "campus life." Such as going out to dinner and picking up the tab. </p>

<p>Thank goodness MOST schools have a plethora (a substantial majority) of students who, regardless of their family wealth, are just decent human beings, don't flaunt it, don't even discuss their personal scholarships, and are interested in just making friends with all kinds of people. Campuses offer all sorts of ON CAMPUS entertainment that is either heavily subsidized or its free. And many colleges try and foster a culture of social responsibility and caring, which is very helpful. </p>

<p>And it really helps to have a good sense of humor at all times. Not just in college, but in life!</p>

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<p>"The very poor who are blessed with excellent genes and high intelligence (the schools actually have not much to do with it....its mostly genetic) and get admitted to the best schools, well....I congratulate them and wish them the very best and applaud their admission. Schools THROW money at them, so they are on their way."</p>

<p>It's important to recognize that only the very top schools -- places like HPYS and top LACs are able to be extremely generous with very poor students. Of course, it's difficult for anyone to get into those very competitive schools, and it's even more difficult for very poor students who typically attend inferior schools that lack AP courses, teachers certified in the subjects that they teach, and guidance counselors who are very knowledgeable about college opportunities (GCs at low income schools spend a lot of time helping students with major problems such as homelessness, flunking out of school, legal problems), don't have educated parents who can help with school work, and can't afford SAT prep courses and enrichment activities.</p>

<p>Consquently, low income students are much less likely than are middle and upper class students to go to schools with good financial aid. Most colleges are not able to meet 100% of students' documented need. That can be hard for middle class students, but it's even harder for low income students, who typically can't rely on grandparents and doting uncles and aunts to fill the gap. In fact, the low income students may need to give some of their own work earnings to help their own families financially survive.</p>

<p>Low income students are more likely to go to lower tier colleges and community colleges, and those are the colleges that have the worst financial aid.</p>

<p>As for the original post: I haven't seen low income students have a lot of problems at the elite institutions. That's because such schools tend to have a lot of inexpensive on campus activities, and also have funds for low income students who may wish to do things like study abroad. </p>

<p>I also think that the elite schools tend to have more students who are community service minded, and are in general less likely to look down on a classmate because that person is poor. That's because the elite schools get such an overabundance of high stat applicants that the schools can afford to select students based on additional things including being service minded. For instance, the majority of Harvard students volunteer for Phillips Brooks House, a community service organization that has dozens of projects that are student run.</p>

<p>Where I think the low income students have the toughest times are at the public universities, which is probably where the majority of low income students go. There, they have to financially struggle more due to the fact that virtually no public institution can afford to meet even in-state applicants' full financial need. Students may get only 60% or less of their financial need, and the bulk of what they get may be loans.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, there are plenty of rich kids at public universities. From what I've seen (and I've taught at two, and attended an Ivy), the public university students are far more interested in flaunting things designer clothes and expensive cars than are students at top colleges. Why? The students at top colleges tend to value brains and intellectually related talent more than they do things like clothes. Many students, however, pick public institutions because of the students want to have "fun" in college, and such students more than likely are going to value material things more than a student who picks an Ivy for prestige.</p>

<p>The public universities also have more Greek life (which is very expensive) than do most top universities. </p>

<p>The research that I've seen also indicates that the availability of financial aid is one of the main determinants of colleges' graduation rates. When I taught at a 2nd/3rd tier public, I saw many smart, motivated low income students who had to leave because they lacked the money to stay. I also saw low income students who were working 20-30 hours a week during the school year plus taking out heavy loans in order to stay in school.</p>

<p>That simply isn't typical at the top colleges. My experience was that students on need-based scholarships worked about 10 hours a week of fairly easy campus jobs, and still had plenty of time to participate in ECs and to do their coursework.</p>

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<p>^^Agreed. </p>

<p>Nocousin, there are literally about 10-12 schools in the country that truly 'THROW' money at low income students, and, as the above post says, lower income students often are at a disadvantage of getting admitted to those already insanely difficult schools because their middle and high school educational opportunities are often close to nil. Even the schools that offer to pay '100% demonstrated need' (few though they may be) often do so by piling on student loans that will prove to further burden the student once they graduate and find themselves truly on their own.</p>

<p>Too many people try and keep their conscience at bay by using this absurd rationale that low income students are having money and opportunities thrown at them left and right. Reagan used this train of thought to spread fear of the 'welfare queen', the single mother who lived in luxury because of federal assistance, but that notion never reflected reality. The steps that are being taken at elite colleges, and they are considerable, are just the beginning of what needs to be done to really cure this problem.</p>

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<p>Strandlib-
I agree with your views. I agree that although it is extremely difficult for low-income families in general, when it comes to elite universities, it can be easier for them in comparison to most middle class families. I come from an average family. We are far from wealthy but we fall into that range of too much to qualify for low-income programs but not enough to be able to afford expensive schools. </p>

<p>I think too much emphasis is being put on trying to attend super elite schools. Those low-income students who even meet the academic credentials of Harvard, Standford, etc could easily attend a great public school on full scholarship (totally a fraction of the cost at a private institution). If you work hard and dedicate yourself, you can achieve whatever you desire regardless of your school. I feel that the elite schools are doing what they can and should not be attacked for 'not doing enough'. I go to an SEC school and it is doing much to try to increase scholarship money for all students. Unfortunately, our endowment is no where near the size of more prestigious universities, so we cannot do as much as them.</p>

<p>If money for social activities is a problem, they should really consider attending a public school. There are plenty good ones to choose from. There is so much to do when it comes to recreation at our school. The frats throw parties which might cost $5 or $10. The university sponsors large events all the time, including an annual homecoming concert. Numerous athletic events to attend for free. Sure, spring break trips are expensive, but if you plan in advance you can save money little by little. I didn't go no a spring break vacation and spent that time back at home catching up with all my high school friends, working on my car, and just enjoying no school work for a week.</p>

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<p>thefrencharmy</p>

<p>I'm pretty sure they just look at your income based upon the various papers you/your parents file. So, if the high cost of living reflects in those forms, then it will reflect in the financial aid. If not, then you are out of luck. As to how it might be reflected in those forms, I am not sure.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom</p>

<p>You hit the nail on the head with that one! I have noticed that at my school there are demographics of every type. I believe there are more BMW's, Lexuses, and Range Rovers, then any other car (save Mustangs). I believe you are right that students at elite universities value intellect and service moer than materialistic things. </p>

<p>I would love to become extremely wealthy or establish connections with powerful people so that I can help my public school reach out to less fortunate individuals. I attended summer school at my local community college and it just humbled me and made me appreciate my opportunity even more. My classmates struggle to find money to pay for school, and many are working adults with families who want to get a degree in hopes of slightly higher pay at work. Many have to sit out a semester so that they can save money to attend school the follwing semester.</p>

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<p>Well, I agree generally with your remarks on my first post. Perhaps I didnt clarify it enough. I agree that the VAST majority of minorities and low income families (of whatever ethnicity or culture) are left to third tier and community colleges...if they even have the scores to go there and they are often without sufficient financial aid. And that only a VERY FEW kids from the very poor have the scores to get into HYP etc.....</p>

<p>BUT..the kids I have seen (black, white, hispanic, asian) who WERE low income and who DID have excellent grades and scores sufficiently high enough not to make an admissions officer hold his/her nose, got LOADS of scholarship money and/or financial aid from those FEW prestigious schools that they qualified for. </p>

<p>and yes, I know that MOST low income kids are in low income public high schools and DONT have the resources.</p>

<p>and yes, I know that LOTS of low income kids who do get into even the second tier schools...even public colleges, often have to leave and find a job....to afford going back to school, if they go back at all. Its very sad.</p>

<p>Higher education in this country is a socio-economic MESS. </p>

<p>And then there is the issue of the sometimes randomness or arbitrariness of financial aid and scholarships....uneven results shall we say? Its discouraging at times.</p>

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<p>As a "low-income" with student at a third tier public university looking to hopefully transfer into one of these "elite" colleges, I can vouch for the example Northstarmom provides. My first day of classes at my publuc uni, I was literally astonished at how many students were able to whip out a laptop at the start of class. Even at an unknown school with barely any national repute, the majority of kids here can afford trendy clothing and are well-off enough to procure the latest technologies. A poor kid will feel like a poor kid no matter where he/she goes, since higher education is still regrettably only a venue for the wealthy and the well-to-do. </p>

<p>The problem is especially pronounced at the state level, where public schools are losing state support, and must in turn raise the price of tuition. The cost of an education has been rising at an enormously greater rate than that of inflation today, rendering college less attainable than in the past for students in the bottommost income group. Elite colleges with generous endowments seem to be more receptive of providing need based aid, but state universities make absolutely no promises. The financial aid office at my state university has been totally rude and unreceptive to my aid requests, and as I've discovered, has sooo many inane rules. Things like leaving a Parent loan in every aid package and having "grant maximums" for each student. Also, after calling to reinstate a grant that was reduced from an outside scholarship (loans + workstudy were left untouched; this would probably not be the case from an elite college), I got a voicemail on my birthday telling me I could always not come back next semester. Nice, thanks, love the use of tact.</p>

<p>So, my fellow low-income friends at elite universities, even if you do find your social life to be lacking, please realize what an amazing chance you have at an educational opportunity of a lifetime. :)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
A problem that many schools that do take these kids on a borderline qualification basis has is that these kids too often do not do well. Much, much more needs to be done to keep these kids "in the game" during the academic year. If the standards for research, writing, maths were not what most college prep schools have, these kids are going to be in trouble at schools that have these standards. I know that at my alma mater, this is an on going problem. I remember from my days there, that many of the truly low income kids did not make to graduation, whereas the grad rate for the school is very high overall. Having spoken to some old friends now in the administration, it is very much the case that the low income group is at high risk for not making it through that college. Some of the problem is money, but a lot of it is being completely unprepared for a difficult academic experience. I remember working with some classmates who had never done a mathematical proof in high school. A big problem when you are taking courses that assume you know the basics of that. THere were kids who could not write a simple essay with topic sentences and supporting ones. They did not know what a theme is. Yet these were very smart kids who had worked hard and learned what they were taught. They just were not taught enough. Many of them were pre med and they did not have a chance in the complex lab courses my school had in the sciences. Kids in this predicament, need someone to be right with them that entire first year for them to get the basics that they need or they are not going to make it. Schools need to look at how programs for athletes are designed, and have them available for any kids who are not ready to take the courses that a college has.

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</p>

<p>Agreed, my low-income friends who were most successful in the college admissions process were the ones who were able to go to rigorous magnet middle/high schools and therefore soak up the learning environment of a higher-income school. My friends who graduated val/sal/top 10% at my old underperfoming high school have all been struggling with their first year of college. The only reason I didn't encounter this problem in college was because I transferred schools the summer before my senior year. For the first time, I went to a school that actually had AP classes...and boy, did I feel like the slowest person in my AP Chem, Physics, and Calc classes...these classes were purportedly my best subjects too! At my old hs, we learned maybe a third of the topics were supposed to in our math/science classes. There was no such thing as cumulative finals, much less ones that counted 40-60% of our grades! We never had "calculated" grades either. Sadly, if our teachers were to calculate grades, at least half of the class would've failed, so our teachers would just extrapolate final grades from some exam scores, our consistency, and even for being quiet during class! (My classes were often filled with rowdy kids, so the teacher would look positively towards the "quiet" student as an excellent model of academic behaviour, never mind if that student was actively engaged in learning or just disinterested altogether <em>rolls eyes</em>) Add a washed down curriculum to the equation, and you'll realize there's no way in hell that these kids can even compete in college with higher-income kids who've been exposed to a rigorous curriculum all along. I recommend everyone read Ron Suskind's A Hope in the Unseen: An American Odyssey from the Inner City to the Ivy League about this subject.</p>

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<p>Wow, Escapist. Your school has, quite frankly, some really big jerks in charge. It's far from a matter of meeting financial need: that's just flat-out rude and insensitive.</p>

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<p>Escapist,
The irony is that tuition increases have been said to increase financial aid. Maybe they mean the bureaucracy of financial aid. Unless you meet their target demographics (i.e, one of the columns of USNews rankings), you're paying up.</p>

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<p>When I taught at a 2nd/3rd tier public, the financial aid office was notoriously disorganized. Students would have to wait in line for hours to get help, and their financial aid grants usually were late. The personnel also were known for being unfriendly.</p>

<p>By contrast, when I was a scholarship student at Harvard, financial aid was handled courteously and efficiently.</p>

40

<p>Unless you meet their target demographics (i.e, one of the columns of USNews rankings), you're paying up. ferryboat.</p>

<p>My point exactly. The middle class gets BURNED!</p>