Avg S, little $, wants XC and track

Parents Forum
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<p>My S is quite apart from the norm on this forum. He's an average student (3.5 GPA), SATS: math 640, verbal 570, writing 510 (retaking in Oct). He could do better, but would never be mistaken for an overachiever. As a Sr next year, while all his classes will be honors, he decided not to take any AP (although he took AP history this yr). Our HS has block scheduling and only 4 classes a day. Grades have improved each year, although this year was his hardest academically.</p>

<p>One thing he does enjoy is running. Was on the first ever state championship team for his HS in his first year (jr) of running XC, and has improved steadily in both indoor & outdoor track (capt of both next yr). Got Most Improved in both XC and Indoor track, and Allstar for Outdoor 4x800) While he's looking forward to improving even more, I don't believe he'll be D1 material. He has gotten some letters of interest from Oberlin, Brandeis and DeSales. We will need lots of finaid...and loans I'm sure. I know only D1 and D2 give althetic scholarships, but getting one for track may be hard, since from what I understand any money must be split among the 3 programs.</p>

<p>He has no idea what he wants to do. He likes tinkering with things...computers, cars, go karts. Was on the Robotics team for 3 years (won't be next year...no time), but other than Track and Scouts (working on Eagle) that's his list of extracurriculars.</p>

<p>Neither parents have graduated college, and this is soooo new to us. I really have little idea where or when to start. I'm sure we're already way behind, and it's been very hard to get him to focus on even getting him to look at the brochures or even online. He's open to just about anywhere, but most likely will end up wherever gives us the most $ and fits his style. We live in Mass.</p>

<p>I'd appreciate any suggestions. Thanks</p>

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<p>doc</p>

<p>It's my observation that track scholarships often are divided up among track athletes not the track programs. Many athletes are on all three teams and they often have the same coach. The NCAA allows full scholarships in track to be divided up unlike football and basketball where one full scholarship equals one athlete. So in some schools you could have four or five or more members of the team getting portions of one full scholarship.</p>

<p>Based on what other people have said on CC I would suggest that your son look at the times on the websites for the schools he is interested in. If they are not available look at the conference chamionship times to see if he is competitive. Be aware that if you son does get a scholarship it is likely that he will be required to run all year round; x-country; indoor track; and, outdoor track.</p>

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<p>You need, ?SBMom, someone who has experience with athletic recruiting. I would imagine that a school like Oberlin, even if they give all need-based aid, would go out of the way to be sure a recruited athlete is able to attend.
A couple of thoughts, just from your post - he likes "tinkering", if engineering is at all a possiblity, he may want to only consider schools that actually have engineering programs. Most Lacs have 3-2 engineering arrangements, but that may not work for him, or conversely, he may not have any desire for engineering - he needs to think about that.
"Fit" - I find it somewhat interesting that Brandeis and Oberlin have sent him letters (don't know much about DeSales) - both of these schools have distinct campus cultures, and neither are renowned athletic powerhouses. Now just as you say he may not be DI material, he probably won't get the best offers from the strongest DIII track schools, they will be looking to fill niches, or lure away a DI capable athlete, so he needs to think hard about atmosphere, particularly when he visits. Brandeis you may know about, being in Mass, it is very academic, intellectual sort of place. Your son sounds like a work in progress with that gradual maturation and improvement in high school, he may bloom in that intellectual direction if put in that environment, or he may only find common ground with the other members of the track team - how does he feel about that?
Good Luck, more knowledgeable folks will post soon.</p>

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<p>Thanks, ts. He's always looking up times of other athletes within our league, so this is something he would enjoy doing on his own. Guess I got the scholarship info wrong, but not a problem running year 'round for him.</p>

<p>I did try looking up some threads on this topic, but couldn't find much on athletic scholarships. I'd love to talk with someone who got one, and how they were approached, or if they had to seek out the college.</p>

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<p>"Most Lacs have 3-2 engineering arrangements"</p>

<p>cangel...not sure what this means?</p>

<p>He thought he might be interested in engineering, but pre-cal didn't go well this year, though he is taking intro to engineering next year. </p>

<p>While he may not be D1 material now...if he keeps at it, he could be. His mile time for indoor track improved almost 20 seconds in two weeks. Most kids improve even more once they start in college. I'm just not sure he could handle the pressure for a D1 and keeping grades up.</p>

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<p>Being captain of a sports team is a good EC. The fact that you use a computer will be particularly helpful because there is so much information available on line. </p>

<p>If I was starting from step one, I would make a list of things your son likes and doesn't like regarding school.</p>

<p>Living preferences:
Does he mind living in the City, or in the Country. Does he want to live near home or is distance okay. Does he want dorm space for four years or only the first year? Does he want warmer weather or is the Northeast just fine?</p>

<p>Academic goals:
Is a four year degree his goal, or would he rather take a two year AA degree and get certified as an auto mechanic. Community colleges are often cheaper than four year colleges and if he decides to move on after a successful community college career he could finish his four year diploma by transferring.</p>

<p>State colleges are a second lower cost approach to education...his high school counselor would be able to tell you what their requirements are.</p>

<p>Private colleges or out of state public colleges can have higher tuitions and expenses but if the scholarships and grants are right could end up being the best bargain.. There are lists of great bargain schools, </p>

<p>A call to the high school guidance counselor is usually worth the dime. They can tell you where similar students have gone in the past and may have some sense of schools within a three or four hour drive of you. They may also know something about local scholarships, that don't always show up on the web.</p>

<p>Visit schools:
Initially, get a chance to see what the market place looks like, what schools offer and what they require. This will give you something to compare to when you start to decide where to apply and where to accept. Give your son a chance to interview with a less significant school before he has to turn on the charm with one he really wants. (Read up on interview techniques.)</p>

<p>Keep a journal about the schools because they will start to blend into a big mush. (Which school had the new indoor pool and the computer lab we liked)</p>

<p>I am not the parent of an athelete but I think comparing your son's speed to college track meet times might provide some insight.</p>

<p>Good luck, I hope some of this is useful...there is a lot more, check out threads from last year in college decisions to see how the process unfolds.</p>

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<p>Welcome, doc53. We have had a few families recently who don't have earth-shattering "stats", so you are not alone. I do not have any help in the athlete context, but do have some comments I hope will be helpful.</p>

<p>Your S is, in fact, not average, but above average. 3.5 is a solid GPA and his SATs are also above average.</p>

<p>You are not late at all entering the serious phase of college admissions. Don't worry. You are now in a place -cc- where you can get virtually (a little pun :)) all the help you need.</p>

<p>Your son not focusing on the process yet is SOOOO normal. For fun (and reassurance), read the book Accept My Kid, Please! A Father's Descent into College Application Hell. We can all relate, us mothers of sons.</p>

<p>The fact that you and dad are not college grads is a plus point on your S's app. Colleges realize that stats like your son's, when the parents have not been to college, are quite an accomplishment and they bump him up a notch compared to other applicants with similar stats.</p>

<p>With answers to some of Mr. B's questions, posters here will be able to suggest a number of possible schools for your son, which will help you get on your way.</p>

<p>Key questions: (1)what do you know about the quality of Guidance Counseling at your S's high school? The GC can be a key resource, but if the quality is lacking, we need to know, so as to advise you how not to be mis-guided and so as to fill in the gap even more. There are some posters here who can give even the best GCs nationally a run for their money.
(2) Have you looked at any of the financial aid calculators, tried filling out the FAFSA to see what you might expect in the way of need-based aid?</p>

<p>Good luck and stay with us.</p>

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<p>3-2 engineering programs at certain LACs:</p>

<p>Some LACs have arrangements with schools that have engineering programs that allow the LAC students interested in engineering to attend 3 years at the LAC and 2 years at the engineering school and receive both a bachelors in engineering and a liberal arts degree. For example, Reed College in Oregon has connections with Columbia and Caltech.</p>

<p>The problem? You have to apply at the end of your junior year to get into the engineering part of the program and you are not promised an acceptance. I haven't heard personally of someone doing this, but I have heard that you really have to do WELL at the LAC to even be considered.</p>

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<p>Thank you all so much. To be honest, I was a little intimidated reading through a lot of these threads.</p>

<p>I guess I feel he's avg, because so many of his friends got over 2000 on SAT and are in the top 10 (not percent) in class rank (he's in top 25%...74th I believe). Have had no contact with GC except to get a copy of transcript. Is it too late to call now?? (Last day of school is Monday) or are they there through the summer?</p>

<p>I did a fin aid calculator...and it looks like our expected contribution is very low...but since my husband's self employed, I'm not sure what to expect next year.</p>

<p>Thanks, again.</p>

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<p>My experience is that a little better than average college bound kid, in a variety of areas is valuable to a college. But, just how valuable? My experience is just a little more than the average college bound kid. If he is much better than ave in a number of areas that great, of course. But you seem to describe your youngster as currently a bit better than ave in many areas, but capable of D1 track. that would be way better than most kids in track. If that holds true, d2 schools would jump at him bigtime to steal him away. d3 schools cannot offer sports scholarships, but they sometimes word it different ways to be legal.<br>
For most all of us, the cost of ed. counts, and remember entry into a small school -without a glorious history for sports- might recruit him harder(pay more) for track, and provide an equal or better education for less cost.</p>

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<p>Re "where and when" to start the process. If you have a good, well-organized Guidance Dept, you may find that they put out materials with monthly timelines for the kids. Since your S is a rising Senior and you haven't seen such materials, that means either your school doesn't provide them - or - they are somewhere in the piles/mounds of paper in your S's room. ;)</p>

<p>So you might check first whether such materials are available in that way. Otherwise, the College Board website has Action Plans, timelines, a place to search for colleges based on different criteria and many other resources.</p>

<p>I'm betting it's not too late to call Guidance Office today and they may be available for a little while in early and late summer. But not all summer, so now is an ideal time.</p>

<p>Keep us posted.</p>

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<p>This is the sum total of my athletic recruiting knowledge - I think you can go on the NCAA website and read about the rules for recruitment for the different divisions. This is important, because the recruiting season begins soon, ?now?</p>

<p>Ellen put it well, few kids become engineers out of a 3-2 LAC program, for most, if they have some interest in engineering, they should look at colleges with engineering as an on campus major.</p>

<p>We need one of the Moms or Dads with an athlete.</p>

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<p>doc53, welcome from another parent of a kid who doesn't fit the overall CC profile! I'm not using the word average, because he isn't -- and neither is yours! There is a lot of wonderful information here, just don't let the stats that are discussed get you down.</p>

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<p>Doc,</p>

<p>I found these books very helpful:</p>

<p>Rugg's Recommendations on the Colleges by Frederick E. Rugg
Great for identifying schools strong in a particular major</p>

<p>Fiske Guide to Colleges by Edward Fiske
Good capsules for top schools</p>

<p>The Fiske Guide to Getting into the Right College by Edward B. Fiske, Bruce G. Hammond
Walks you through the process/timeline</p>

<p>On Writing the College Application Essay by Harry Bauld
NOW I know what they are looking for!</p>

<p>If your son wants to continue with CC/T&F you can find schools from all divisions here:</p>

<p><a href="http://www2.ncaa.org/sports/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www2.ncaa.org/sports/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If he is interested in D1 he will have to register with the NCAA. (it's easy) Also, many schools offer CC only - no T&F, so check carefully. </p>

<p>On each school's CC and T&F page look for a link that will bring you to their conference championship. If your son's times are near the top a coach will be interested. </p>

<p>The best time to get in touch with these schools is this summer. Have your son email coaches with his SATs, GPA and verifiable FAT times. Many schools also have an online form you can send. If the coach is interested he will get in touch with you. You can set up appointments to interview with admissions and see the coach on the same day. Be forewarned, T&F coaches love to talk. I have never in my life met such a chatty bunch of men. :)</p>

<p>Strong T&F programs in New England: D1 - UMass, UConn, URI, Northeastern, BU D2- UMass Lowell, Stonehill</p>

<p>These links will take you to the New England Championships (not the conference championships). Your son might enjoy these.</p>

<p>New England Championships Cross Country Fall 2005
<a href="http://www.coolrunning.com/results/04/ma/Oct8_MensNe_set1.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.coolrunning.com/results/04/ma/Oct8_MensNe_set1.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>New England Championships Indoor Winter 2005
<a href="http://www.wheatoncollege.edu/Athletics/indoortrackm/05results/AllNEChampionship05.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wheatoncollege.edu/Athletics/indoortrackm/05results/AllNEChampionship05.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>New England Championships Outdoor Spring 2005
<a href="http://www.wheatoncollege.edu/Athletics/outdoortrackm/05results/AllNewEnglandChampionship05.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wheatoncollege.edu/Athletics/outdoortrackm/05results/AllNewEnglandChampionship05.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Thank you all again. I can see we have our work cut out for us this summer.</p>

<p>S did bring home some blank Teacher Evaluation forms home yesterday (his last day of school!). I'm not sure what he intends to do with them now. As far as the GC goes, I'll give a call on Monday. My guess is they have everything there, S just doesn't go out of his way to check it out.</p>

<p>I do know that some of his teammates went to D2 schools (Stonehill, UMass Lowell), several went to D3 (UMass Dartmouth, Bates), and a few went to D1 (although I don't know if they're running there). Others went to schools I don't remember, and were further away. Also several of these kids are NHS and NM members and at least 3or 4 were in the top 10 grads, none of which my son will be.</p>

<p>I'll keep in touch.</p>

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<p>Those Teacher Evaluation forms are <em>probably</em> for him to give to the teachers he chooses for his recommendations now, so that they have ample time to work on them and are not pressed for time in the fall.</p>

<p>This is a really good idea. So check with your Guidance Office and have your son speak to/email his chosen teachers and get them the form. In the best of all worlds, he speaks for a few minutes to his Guidance Counselor about who to choose. S knows which teachers he thinks he has "in his corner," GC knows who tends to do good job with the recs. Often, colleges like to see one rec from a math/sci-type teacher and one from a humanities/social sciences teacher. Best that they be from "core" academics rather than PE,etc. imo. Some schools want ONLY two teacher recs; others will accept additional ones, so you can add in great recs from these other fields.</p>

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<p>I'd be careful of schools like Oberlin with his stats, he would definitely be on the low end there and with the added pressurd of missed classes for athletic events it might be awfully tough. Engineering is very math heavy and science heavy. Typically one to two years of college calc, a year or physics and a year of chem. You can't start the physics until you are finishing up the first year of calc. If pre-calc didn't go well this year I'd be careful of steering him in that direction. I know several runners who are at mid-size state schools, some D1 some D3. We're in the midwest so the schools are Illinois State and Univ of Wisc Platteville. Both schools are large enough to offer a broad range of majors which could be good for someone like your son who is still exploring. I'm sure there are similar schools in other regions. They also seem able to find money for recruite athletes. a word of caution with athletic scholarships. If the team is paying for you they own you. They are the ones who decide on your doctors and medical care and if you get injured and can't compete you may lose your scholarship. Some schools will give students partial athletic and partial academic scholarships to cover the costs. At a tier 2 school your son might qualify for something like that.</p>

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<p>Hi doc, I am the mom of a D3 athlete who just went through this and goes to college this fall. Let me give you some ideas to get going.</p>

<p>Start looking for schools that you feel would be a match for your son based on the ideas mentioned above-- size, location, campus culture, level of sports ability, etc. </p>

<p>Based on the stats you give, you will probably be looking at D3 schools in the realm of #40-#75 on US News LAC Rankings. IMO, you want a school where his stats are in the realm of other students. How much of a "reach" generally has to do with how his scores stack up at that school. </p>

<p>You will get "fit" ideas from the book "Colleges that Change Lives." You will get "stat" ideas from USNWR. You will get "sport" ideas by looking up D3 track rankings on the ncaa website. (Luckily, in your sport, times can be found and this is a reliable rubric! In my D's sport, tennis, we had to go watch matchs to <em>see</em> what teams were her level.) We stuck to the schools where we felt she would be a very interesting recruit to the coach-- not the top 20 national teams, but the schools where she'd be a starter and a big asset. (Also, schools where she'd be at the median level for SATs or better.) </p>

<p>Our goal was basically to find a school she adore attending that would be a slight reach academically but where the sports would push her over the bar. Other people might have different goals, such as a great coach, or a specific region, or $.</p>

<p>We gathered all the ideas from USNWR, CCTL, & NCAA (about 40 schools) and then D made a more refined list based on which schools were still appealing once she read the descriptions in guidebooks and on websites (about 15 remained.)</p>

<p>Then D started emailing the coaches. Some of the schools we identified were not really "recruiting" type places (no wonder they weren't winning any championships!) Others had coaches who were relatively much more interested. Some coaches were very appealing to D, some less so. We visited a few schools and some were great in person, some so so. </p>

<p>You want a place where coach is appealing, team is appealing, school is appealing (remember, he could get injured) and hopefully where your S is VERY appealing to the coach. </p>

<p>I suspect schools that are regionally ranked but not the #1 in their region and not the top 20 nationally (say 20-50 nationally, or 2-4 regionally) would be schools that still CARE about the sport and want to excel in it, but will also be eager for recruits. The Regional/National champ teams get all the applicants; your kid may be more of a standout by shooting a bit lower.</p>

<p>Off the top of my head, check out Allegheny. It is a good Liberal Arts college, a medium size, D3, and you son would fit in to the stats there. They also give merit aid. No idea how their track team is. </p>

<p>A low EFC is good news because schools that cover need will probably be affordable.</p>

<p>Check out my thread "Does Enthusiastic Coach Call = Likely Letter?" for more recruitment tales. There is alos a book called "Playing the Game" that many have recommended.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>Hi Doc, your son's stats are very similar to my daughters and we think she is above average. No she is NOT applying to the Ivy League or any similarly competitive school. BUT there are many colleges out there where her profile is a good one. She will also retake the SATs in October. She is NOT interested in athletics (except as a club sport in swimming) but she IS interested in music programs as a non-major...another twist to the college hunt. I agree with everyone else on this thread...look up school sites. They give very good information about the types of students there (look for student profile and you will see the average SATs and GPAs and Class rank, for example). Re: athletics, has your son spoken to his high school coach or the athletic director at his school? I know where we are (semirural school) these folks have excellent information about athletic opportunities for college bound students AND in some cases have contacts at the colleges. DD who is not a starter on the swim team, for example, has gotten letters from small LACs in this area re: swimming ops in college. It's not like her name is in the papers every week...so this had to have come from the swim coaches. My only caveat is that with Division 1, you youngster needs to be prepared to do his sport almost at the expense of his studies. This is something you would need to explore with the specific school should that become an option. There are a LOT of smaller LACs that might be delighted to have an above average student who can really make a mark on their team. This is also worth looking at.</p>

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<p>scanned the 2005 D3 track results: schools that caught my eye for your S: Susquehanna, Wheaton, TCNJ, Ursinus, Coe, Juniata, York, St. Lawrence</p>