Avoid elite Chemical Engineering programs - advice from a grad student

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>I am currently a PhD student in the chemical engineering department at UC Berkeley. Based on what I and other grad students have observed about the quality of the undergraduate program, I decided to start taking action to warn prospective undergraduate students not to heed the so-called US News "rankings" of undergraduate chemical engineering programs at elite schools. I also attended a "top ten" undergraduate program, but a slot or two lower than Berkeley according to US News. I can't remember what the order was when I started my PhD (it shuffles around). </p>

<p>I also attended a large public research institution as an undergraduate, but based on the US News ranking I automatically assumed that the UCB undergrad program would be more difficult when it came time to be a GSI. I assumed more math and computer knowledge would be required and applied in the courses. I assumed the workload would be invariably higher, the classes would be smaller, and the students would demonstrate a better understanding of the material on exams. In all, I was expecting to be wowed and feared I would feel inadequate as a GSI, because I had always taken US News rankings seriously. What I found was stunningly the opposite. In chemical engineering major courses, there were up to 100 students in a class. My major courses never exceeded 50, and were almost always around 30 or less. The classes of 100 also only get 2 GSI's at Berkeley. Since there isn't enough man power to assign and correct an adequate load of homework and a reasonable frequency of midterms (which I consider three per semester) with only 2 GSI's, the homework and exam loads were drastically reduced compared to my own program- both in difficulty and quantity. There was only one midterm exam in the class I taught, and only 2 homework problems were assigned per week. There was also a lab component to the class, which met for only 1.5 hours a week and no formal reports were required. </p>

<p>For purposes of comparison, the equivalent course at my undergraduate institution involved an average of 6-8 problems a week (each of which was longer and more difficult than the 2 problems a week the Berkeley students were assigned - I still have all my homeworks), three midterm exams, 6-8 hours of lab per week, formal reports on those labs (which average 10-15 pages each double spaced - I still have those too), and an end-of-semester project (which was 30 pages long in my case), in addition to the final exam. I felt bad for the UCB students, so I would give them practice problems from my undergrad archives. But sadly, most of the problems would have been way too hard, because they were not taught or expected to know what it took to solve them. So I had to modify them and water them down a bit to make them tractable for the majority of students.</p>

<p>In summary, the difficulty and quantity of the work assigned to the UCB chemE undergrads doesn’t even hold a candle to what I had and another large public university. Thankfully though, I learned a great deal from the class, and since my tuition was a lot cheaper, I also got a lot more bang for my buck. I am finally beginning to see why the grad programs at places like MIT, Berkeley, and so-on, are dominated by graduates of Big-Ten schools, GA Tech, UT Austin, etc. The programs are tough, but you'll learn a lot more, you'll have a higher chance of getting into a top graduate program, and may get more job offers too (I had offers from Shell, Dow, Exxon, United Technologies, and Merck. Some of those places don't even recruit undergrads from elite schools).</p>

<p>If you are looking for a solid program from which you will learn a lot and land plenty of job offers and graduate school acceptance letters, AVOID chemical engineering programs at UCB, and elite schools in general. Even at private elite schools with small classes, there is a lot of grade inflation (more A’s given out for a given caliber of student), hand-holding and spoon-feeding. You will have an easy ride because you won’t be expected to do much independent thinking (from what I have heard from the grad students in my department who attended places like Princeton and Stanford anyway).</p>

<p>Don’t get cheated out of what the hard work you are capable of (and the money you are paying) should be earning for you. Pick your undergraduate chemical engineering program wisely, not based on US News rankings.</p>

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<p>Hmmm, there is at least one poster with over 13,000 posts who posts here regularly about how UCB Chemical Engineering has students learn Maxwell’s Relations and how most students find it difficult on tests and such and how it is not used in industry or graduate school and how this example means that engineering is too difficult relative to other subjects and how unfair it is that engineering is harder than “cream puff” majors…</p>

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<p>^ Haha yeah I’m really confused about what to expect from my ChemE program now…Looking forward to what Sakky has to say to this.</p>

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<p>Also on a side note, I wanted to mention that from what I have observed of the UCB Chemistry undergraduate program, it is first-rate. That said, I don’t think that the UCB program is “bad”, so-to-speak. But I do not think it belongs anywhere in the top ten US News rankings.</p>

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<p>Berkeley is a good school (at least I think)- just understand these so-called rankings aren’t that meaningful.</p>

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<p>So, what kind of schools are you recommending then? Would this hold true for other engineering disciplines?</p>

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<p>Can you vouch for Cal Polys and the other UCs in regards of research and education?</p>

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<p>@ davidthefat - I cannot speak for other disciplines, because I would rather not generalize beyond what I’ve observed or heard from people who graduated from those programs. Also, Chemical Engineering at UCB is very unique in that it is not part of the engineering school. It is part of the College of Chemistry.
It also depends whether you would rather go to grad school or want to go straight to industry and want to end up in a very hands-on manufacturing and design type job. In that case, there are a myriad of schools I haven’t even listed that would put many better-known and higher-ranked schools to shame.</p>

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<p>I’ve run into people from UC-Riverside and UCSB on grad school visit weekends. But I don’t know anything first hand about them. I’m sure they have perfectly reputable programs. UCB’s is too, just a tad overrated is all.</p>

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<p>There are also UCB grads at plenty of “top” research programs if you are looking to go to grad school. UCB students are smart (probably obvious).</p>

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<p>@ ucbalumnus - 13,000 posts almost sounds like someone with a vested interested in promoting the program. Grad students wouldn’t care about that too much. I wonder if it’s a faculty member.</p>

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<p>Maybe you were too prepared for the program</p>

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<p>If you are specifically interested in Chemical Engineering, note that is not available at UC Santa Cruz, UC Merced, and Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. It is available at the other undergraduate UCs and Cal Poly Pomona, as well as CSU Long Beach and San Jose State.</p>

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<p>I don’t get it. So Two GSI teaching a 100 student class? Well, UCB is overcrowded, isn’t it? The size of the an intro biology course is like 600+. Is that what you are referring to? I am interested in this because my high school freshman friend wants to attend UCB for biology. </p>

<p>But if UCB students are academically better than the tier-2, tier-3 (sorry, have to use the so-called tier-rank) students, shouldn’t the program expects more from the students? When I look at MIT courses, such as Physics, CS, the instructors covers more than topics. This is obvious because our school is in low rank, and most of our students <em>are</em> not as academically super as the MIT’s students.</p>

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<p>What about University of Minnesota? I have intention to take ChemE as my major when I finish my high school.</p>

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<p>I honestly don’t know if UCB is overcrowded. I do know that there are enough GSI’s to staff more than 2 in a class that big. I also can’t make any statements about Biology or about any other programs at UCB. That would be stepping outside what I actually have observed. As far as intro classes go, those are huge at all public schools including the one I went to.</p>

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<p>I would recommend Minnesota for sure. Great rep in industry and academia alike. Same goes for most of the highly ranked schools. It’s just that a handful of elite schools are ranked a little higher than they probably should be.</p>

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<p>I don’t know the actual situation, but it sounds like California’s budget cuts might have something to do with this.</p>

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<p>@OchemE</p>

<p>I feel the same way at ucla. Im studying aerospace engineering for undergrad. I mean I was surprised how many students don’t even read the textbook once and rely on the lecture notes to study. Just amazing. not to mention, the difficulty of the exams and homework was nothing different from the community college that I attended. Yes, there are awesome teachers who really let students learn materials, but overall I wouldn’t recommend engineering at ucla for undergraduate. It’s reputation in engineering is all from the research done by grad students.</p>

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<p>@password</p>

<p>If it’s any condolence, that’s how undergrads are pretty much everywhere I think. They will use the lecture notes mostly.</p>